Michelle:

There are three that I do think you can answer in any order. And then when I edit this, I'm just going to put them in the order that I think is best. And I do edit just because there're pauses and I try to compress the episodes. So Jeremy, if you're too long, it's okay. I'm just going to cut you off. (Taylor: Just pick the good ones. You can edit all of my..)

So I kind of want to know when both of you first realized on your own that this is something that you wanted to do maybe together, you also kind of felt it after coming back from Vietnam being like, I want to reinvest in the community in a certain way. But I think it's what Jeremy said about seeing that connection happen in kids and that lighting you up. I'm wondering if that happened before you even went to Vietnam or at some point, I don't know, maybe in your childhood or something. Right. Number two, so just write these down if you need.

Yes. Number two, I would love to know how you would both describe US culture. And I'd ask this because I have been asked many times, especially when I moved to France and I started doing language exchange with people and they were like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I really want to know more about the culture of your country. And I'm like, well, which part? You know what I mean? Oakly, and we're a country and evolution all the time. So specifically maybe you both have different answers and I think that's okay too, right? But then the third thing is also whether or not your community work crosses over with your work in the company and your mission and whether there are intersecting points, because I feel that's also a really nice angle to look at. Can we just unpack this? We're all friends here, right? So let's go through it one by one.

Jeremy:

Sure. So for me, when it comes to the first question with that aha moment, mine actually came in the form of a little 15-year-old girl from Hong Kong. I was working just doing basic grammar. After the pandemic happened, I went into a scrambling type of thing and I just started teaching English, just English in general. And then I kind of leaned over into grammar and I was doing that and I was making a couple games, but I had one mom who assigned a 15-year-old girl to me and she was saying, well, she's not doing very well. She's just not doing very well with English. Right? Okay, yeah. Going to fix that. But when she came in, I realized that her grammar was okay and everything was kind of good. And then we started digging a little bit deeper, just having conversations and I come to find out that this little girl was actually suicidal.

She had suicidal tendencies. She did not want to continue life. And as we continue to go into that, we were asking about her therapy, what she's doing to cause this. And then I found out it was because she had no friends and her therapist was trying to help her unpack and to get with friends. And I went, oh, actually I had the same problem when I was a kid. And I realized that it was because I was always trying to make people like me, but what I really needed to do was to help them make me like them. In order to become interesting, you have to be interested. And so we were kind of walking through that and then in our next week when we came back and we were talking, she had made a friend, she made her very first friend, and this friendship then grew and over the next two years when she turned 17, I got to see her leave therapy.

She left therapy because she was no longer having those feelings. She now had three to four really close friends, and it was at that moment that I'm not a psychologist or anything like that, but when I helped someone overcome that difficulty in their life through the tiny tips and tricks that I gave them, that's when I went, oh my God, I want to do this for a lot of people. I want to be able to help people overcome that communication barrier that they may not even know is a communication barrier. So that was for me, that was my moment. I can't say the same for Taylor though.

Taylor:

Well, and her mom coming to you afterward. I mean I obviously can't top that. Mine is a cumulative pile of different little stories. Obviously. We started out, I also started out with teaching children and having people tell me, oh my God, thank you. I've never seen my kid laugh while learning, especially English. I think being told that so many people have a negative experience while learning English, and that can be through ESL programs here, and that could be by their teacher wherever they live. A lot of horrible experiences.

Jeremy:

How many times do you hear that a teacher overseas sexually assaulted one of his teenage students? And it's like, it's ridiculous. It's terrible that those types of people are allowed to even get close to children,

Taylor:

But every time one of my clients has a win or a big milestone that they've met, I'm like, okay, yeah, because without this training, that wouldn't have happened. Somebody seeing somebody go from zero to hero and then them saying thank you, like girl, that was you.

Taylor:

That was you. I just showed you that you could do it. And so knowing that some people just need that encouragement. It's crazy fulfilling to help somebody get that transformation that they deserve. 100% how we know that the volunteering thing is right for us. The amount of children who call us Aunt Taylor and Uncle Jeremy.

Jeremy:

Yeah, I was going to say, sorry to interrupt you, Taylor. One of the sad things is that we actually are going right after we're done with our podcast and everything, we are actually going to go say goodbye to a community member. Unfortunately, they were diagnosed with stage four lung cancer. We're stopping by their house tonight to say our goodbyes to them. But yeah, it's that when you have that moment where I'm saying goodbye to a friend, right, I'm saying goodbye to someone who I care about, uncle Jeremy, aunt Taylor. It's not just something that you're doing as an eat, pray, love moment or to feel good about yourself. At a certain point, the people of these communities become your second family.

Taylor:

And so just being welcomed in as family to the point where they have a children's Vietnamese song and dance program and we have been asked that, Hey, can you be on call in case we ever can't show up? Or if it's snowing too bad and I can't make it across the city to get to the studio in time, can you guys be there? I'm just a bunch of random people are like, yeah, I trust them with our kids. And I'm like, I've met you twice. And so it's crazy to have that impact on people and

Jeremy:

You can't go back after that.

Taylor:

You can't, I can't just stop doing it now, being invited to Thanksgiving events and family events all the time.

Jeremy:

I was going to say, I think that Michelle kind of understands that feeling. It's hard to explain if you've never done it before, and I'm not saying looking down my nose at people like that or anything, but it's when you actually change someone's life, you helped them get the job, you helped them lose the weight, you stopped them from ending their life, whatever it may be. When you help someone reach a goal and you've changed their life, it's hard to go back to selling cars or customer service on the phone or something. It's difficult to go back to that because you got to see how much your work actually changed something about someone's life.

Michelle:

Yeah. I had a client, I called them legacy clients. They've been with me from the beginning and they're so loyal and they're like, don't leave. And I'm like, you need to leave. This is the last month. Goodbye after because you don't need me anymore. I do kick people out actually pretty regularly, but I have one in particular, and I just went on, I remember it was the one year anniversary. We figured out on the schedule, we're like, oh, actually last year at this time is the first time you contacted me. I remember I had a 10 minute congratulations speech because I was like, I am so proud of you. Oh, you have no idea how far you've come. I've never realized that I could, I guess, be so emotional inside of a professional situation, but I do feel a little bit like… my babies! 

(Jeremy: Yeah, they're your babies.)

Just like I'm so proud sometimes because I know, and it's what Taylor said, it's the work that they did and you just happened to be there. Not only telling them the right things, but they entrusted you with that responsibility. You rose to the occasion and together. Yeah, obviously magic happens, but I will say that for sure I do feel the burden of responsibility. I think that's also why I work so hard to make sure I treat each individual person as themselves, that I'm never assuming anything. I think I probably go too far in how I work with people because I am always so careful. You do play a huge role. They're interviewing for a new job, they're moving to a new country, and when they move, it's not with adults. It's often with families or with extended family as well, and you're like, I want to do everything to make sure that you're fully equipped and so I'm going to do my best. I'm going to bring my very best. Right? Absolutely. Yeah. Okay. Question two… answer. Yes.

Jeremy:

When it comes to US culture, I can only speak to Utah because that's the only place I've ever lived inside of the United States. Taylor can speak more to Californian culture and everything, but as far as it comes to Utah culture and the United States, obviously there's a stigma for religion. So most people here are quite religious, lots of churches and temples. A lot of people here are community based and we love the outdoors. We really are very family oriented because of the religion. So we have a very heavy look on family. Even if you're not spiritual or religious, we still have that type of family culture. And we also do a lot when it comes to food. I feel that… Not saying that, I mean, yeah, people from the United States are bigger on average, but I'm talking about our diversity of food. One thing that I actually really missed about the United States while I was in Vietnam was I couldn't find a burrito to save my life, and I really, really wanted a burrito.

Taylor:

We wanted good Mexican food the whole time we were gone,

Jeremy:

So it was hard to find, and so I had to really search. And then the nearest place that sold a burrito was like 20 minutes away. Versus in America, I can say I'm in the mood for dim sum. It's down the street. I want Vietnamese food. It's down the street, Indian food right next door. So I like our diversity of food looking more on a negative aspect. I would say the thing that I think kind of hurts us the most is probably that individualism or the mindset based on capitalism only because not saying that capitalism's like evil, naughty, or that all people from the United States are selfish, but it's more so we can't understand why people do good things for nothing. It's difficult for someone to wrap their head around, well wait, you're not getting anything. Then what do you get? Well, I want this to be an equal exchange. We've heard of some members of the community, they're like, we asked do you need volunteers? And they would be like, well, we can't pay you, right? That's what volunteer means. Do you need a volunteer? And they go, well, but what do you get out of this? I don't get anything out of this. I want to go to the event. Give me a free ticket to the event.

Taylor:

We were asked, what do you get out of it? And we're obviously not shopping for clientele

Jeremy:

Within

Taylor:

The community here.

Jeremy:

I was going to tell Michelle, there was actually, we do know some people who are in our industry and they're like, oh, I need to go get clients. I know I'm going to buy a booth at the Asian festival and promote my English study group at this event. And I'm like, bro. And one, you're going into an Asian festival assuming that they don't speak English. That's number one. That's what your booth says. And then number two, they aren't there for English.

Jeremy:

They're there for the festival. They want to buy lanterns and get some food and everything. You English classes are just sitting there being like, ha approach the agents.

Taylor:

You're there to soak up their culture, not in a culture vulture way. You're there to be observing and enjoying the culture and learning about it.

Michelle:

Yeah. I have so many problems with that, by the way, as an Asian American person, I have so many problems with what you just described. I've seen it too. I don't even know where to begin. You know what I mean? You labeled some things, but I'm just like, I just can't, just going to ignore because it's crazy actually. How many assumptions and how many pre-checks were not done in order to validate this as an idea? I just don't even, where do I begin?

Taylor:

So when it comes to us culture, yeah, it's like Jeremy said, it's very much, I focus a lot on food. Obviously there are so many different types of cuisines everywhere. And like he said, you want Indian cool right down the street. You want Chinese food. Cool. What kind do you want? Do you want Taiwanese food? Do you want Hong Kong style? Do you want dim sum? And so it's hard to say that there is one uniform culture in the us. It is so many different cultures morphed and put together, and even little things like a lot of the Vietnamese Americans that I know are very, very vastly different culturally from the Vietnamese people from Vietnam who live there.

Jeremy:

Completely different mindset.

Taylor:

Oh yeah, I speak with them differently. It's even little things when I'm in Vietnam, I call it Ho Chi Minh City. When I'm in Utah and I'm talking to a Vietnamese person and they ask, where did you live? I tell them Saigon, because they typically feel a little bit differently.

Jeremy:

And even in Vietnam culturally, it's not like taboo or a no-no. But if I'm not dating the girl that I am talking with, I don't usually touch her and hug her and everything like that. They don't really do that as much in Vietnam. It's like, yeah, girls will hug each other, but you only really hug the boy you're dating, not just strangers versus in the United States, we go in and these women in the Vietnamese community, not only do they hug, it is a firm mama bear hug, it's there. And it's like I wouldn't get that from the same age group in the same type of women in Vietnam as I do in America. And that's just one of those tiny little, even though they're both Vietnamese, the cultures are different with greetings.

Taylor:

One thing that I would say that is pretty, it's kind of a… heed my warning, if you are coming to the US, and it's not even a warning. It's more so of a, Hey, listen to this before you come get good at small talk. That's my biggest piece of advice. You are going to be put in positions because this is true everywhere to an extent. Some places it's a lot more fast paced in New York City, but you're still going to face small talk. You're still going to be approached randomly by a lady at the grocery store who's talking about how great the potato harvest is this season. Get good at small talk everywhere I have lived. Small talk has been a big thing. When I wasn't great at small talk growing up, it was awkward every time, but now I make a bestie everywhere I go, get good at small talk, and that's going to be a huge elevator.

Michelle:

I think it's why people get good at English really fast in this country also because it's like you don't have, I told Yann before coming, I was like, you think I talk a lot? Okay, just do wait because I'm going to let you loose in. And he came back after his first real day out in DC and he was like, yeah, I had so many conversations with people, it was great. I couldn't understand them because the accents are different, but it's like, like now I see what you mean by you're talking all the time.

Jeremy:

All the time. Time. Yeah, the time. We're a very talkative culture.

Taylor:

You are going to be forced into so many meetings impromptu at Costco. No matter where you are, there are going to be side conversations and you have to know how to not be awkward.

Jeremy:

Well, and that is one of our stereotypes as people from the United States, is that we over explain or we over express our feelings, things like that. It's like the Americans are too sensitive because we talk about everything and things like that. At least that's one of the stereotypes that we get,

Michelle:

Right? Yeah. I actually will do a separate episode on stereotypes on… specifically American stereotypes from an international perspective because as I journey through life, I see many different viewpoints. I also see where propaganda comes in and media comes in, and I actually thought it might be good. I'll contact you guys if you want to participate in that. I actually think it should be a group discussion, but going back to it, I actually wanted to say something on the fact that when I think we think about the US and we as people from this country, someone asks you, okay, what is US culture? You're like, well, I can't speak to every state, but specifically for my state. And that is a mentality in and of itself that I've come to learn is unique because unless maybe the closest is Canada, because they got provinces, most people are not going to be talking about their particular region.

And because they don't have 50 separate state governments, they have it in a hierarchy. So the federal government is the king, and then if you have separate divisions or regions or they're always different names to categorize, but that just as a concept has to be explained. And I read something online the other day, why are Americans always saying which state they're from? Oh my God, I don't care. All I want to know is, and it's like you don't realize the question has to be answered that way because already you have 50 different mini countries and how it works. And if we're going to speak on culture, Taylor, you said something about how you started talking about food, which I love by the way, because that's exactly where my brain goes. But I had to explain to people that from my perspective, it's actually another difference, which is that it's not ethnic culture. We're talking about social and perhaps a domestic national kind of feeling of love for food is a national feeling. I just think those are the parts to establish, and I love that both of you just already, you exemplified it through your responses.

Taylor:

Well, I can almost guarantee you that if I were to tell you which half of California I am from, you might view me a little bit differently. You might know, oh, okay, so she was kind of raised this way a little bit. Maybe I'm from northern California. A lot of people, they assume LA, Hollywood, San Diego, but I mean they think all of the… Anaheim, Disneyland, Hollywood. I'm from Northern California. I'm closer to Washington and Oregon. It's a lot more, it's a lot more chilly, a lot more Asian cultures of influence.

Jeremy:

I feel like the people who would be annoyed by that type of response are also the type of people who would ask a generally broad question, such as like, well, what are, what's Asian culture?

Taylor:

Yeah, which one? Well, no…

Michelle:

The one. Just the one. Oriental. (*ugh*) Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I don’t know.

Jeremy:

Yeah. It's one of those things where I'm like, well, okay, Asian, Korean versus Indian, very, very different. Just like Floridian versus Californian, very different people.

Taylor:

Somebody from LA and somebody from New York City, they're going to act differently.

Jeremy:

Well, and when you think about it, there's a reason that half the state, or not the state, sorry, half the country is usually divided on which politician they want. That's how different we are. We're split down the middle when it comes to even ideology.

Michelle:

Yeah, I wish it worked out more geographically, honestly speaking, because I think we would find a solution actually really fast.

Jeremy:

Oh, absolutely.

Michelle:

To federal politics. But yeah, I agree that most of the time I don't take the bait, at least not anymore online. And I encourage others also to stray away from answering questions like these because they're meant to provoke and instigate and draw. I mean, it draws traffic. So if you want a pretty viral post, go ahead. In the most toxic way possible, go ahead and post this. Get people to fight.

Jeremy:

See, I'm kind of rude in that way. People will respond or something, they'll comment and if I'm like, I don't know you, or if it's super broad, I just don't respond. The people who I put my time and effort into are the people who I want to grow and build the relationships with. But if you're just some troll online and I'm like, I don't care, go away. I'm not getting into it with you for the next six hours.

Michelle:

Yeah, yeah. 

Let's move on to question three just because, so it's a good thing we blocked out two hours for this, so that was basically, but I do think you kind of answered it already.

Taylor:

I was just going to say I accidentally did kind. That's great. We're not poaching for clients if our community work crosses over into our business.

Jeremy:

Absolutely. But the way it crosses over is not as direct. Because yes, we have had situations where with the Filipino group community here in Utah, they wanted to do a masterclass on networking. So we did one for them, we put it together and we did that. So yeah, it does kind of blend, but I think the way that it's impacted the most is kind of like what we were saying earlier. We don't blatantly just advertise. We don't buy a booth at the Asian festival. We believe that our communication and our experiences will speak for themselves. So for example, we just give our all into volunteering because we want to volunteer. We genuinely want to connect and volunteer. The result of that is, oh yeah, I actually met this really nice couple. You need help with English. They're really cool. They helped us a lot.

Taylor:

They're going to think of us as soon as their friend who lives in their home country goes, I'm really needing an English coach. And they go, I know two people!

Jeremy:

And so that's how it blends and impacts for us is that we never go in with the intention of getting new clients. However, that's where we do get our new clients is because some neighbor of somewhere connected the dots to us and found us through What was that one tailor that happened recently? We actually recently just set up the contract for a new client coming in, and when she came in, we actually found out that she had interviewed with one of our clients,

Taylor:

One of our clients interviewed her for a job, which was kind of really cool to see that full circle. I think it is good to also show the people on Instagram or anything. We do like to show them who we are in a sense. I'm not showing my kids and everything, but if we like to show them a little bit of who we are, the only way to trust somebody is to kind of see a little bit into their life as well. And so we like to share our community work on our business page as well as our personal pages, and it kind of helps people learn a little bit about us and what we do outside of teaching, I guess you could say in some ways it does, but not in the way that most people would assume it does. Crossover.

Michelle:

Yeah, I take massive issue with the targeting, obviously, of certain community groups because I also think that there is a particular lack of external sensitivity around this. So white people coming in to target non-white people groups and to assume blatantly that there is going to be a language or communication issue simply because someone was not born and raised in this country or have family ties outside or internationally. It's pretty, I would say shocking because a really, I don't know if we do have data on this, but I don't know how we really compare on such a granular way. The Washington DC metro area is among the top three most diverse, most highly educated, most so many tops. Basically. I find it shocking because I was almost in this bubble for a fair part of my childhood.

And once I started to leave it, and obviously I was growing up, I was starting to travel a bit more. I was starting to make connections, friends working, and realizing the exception that was my life here relative to the rest of the country. And I had to open my eyes, even for my own country to be like, okay, this is pretty ugly. And I think that's the difference you guys are explaining. It's the lack of malice in your intent when you go into this. You're not trying to poach clients because you're just genuinely looking to connect. If you do end up with clients, fantastic. Who doesn't want that? Who doesn't want to have a strong network for that reason? But I definitely, definitely, and I see it, and I hate it so much when I see people targeting and under false pretenses many times like, oh yeah, so great. I want to learn more about the culture and Oh, you're a collectivist. Fantastic. Teach me more. Right? I have realized as an Asian American woman, I need to also close the loop sometimes and warn other people of color in this country, not to just welcome every person who walks through the door, who it's like… wolf in sheep's clothing, kind of like that.

Taylor:

Welcome at an arm's length. Until you know who they are and what their intentions are.

Jeremy:

Interestingly, we actually do use, it's kind of a stupid metric, but we do vet people. If it's one of those situations where it's like, oh, I don't necessarily want you in my life, but hey, I'm not going to treat you poorly. I'm keeping you at an arm's length. Versus the people who we really, really like to have in our lives, we actually go onto their social network and we see who they're following.

Jeremy:

And it doesn't necessarily have to be big figures. It doesn't have to be male robins or Simon Sinek or anything like that.

Taylor:

What type of videos do you repost?

Jeremy:

Yeah, what do you repost? Are you only following white men? What's your following list look like? How diverse is your following list and who do you follow? Who do you listen to? But if I go in and someone's like, oh, I love Asian people. And then I go in and the only...

Taylor:

People, it's just a bunch of Asian women…

Jeremy:

Asian women, Asian woman, Asian woman, Asian woman go, no, you have a fetish. You don't respect the culture. It's very…

Michelle:

Different. Yes.

Jeremy:

Yes. But the one thing that the culture vultures… we had an experience with that actually here in Utah. There was another person who was a language coach, and they actually, they had some audacity for sure, some “Caucasity” if you will, but they sat here and they went, okay, so I see that you're doing a lot of work with the Asians in Utah. And we said, yeah, yeah, we're doing a lot of work with the Asian groups. And she went, okay, so what if I took the Hispanic group and you guys took the Asian group? I was like…

Taylor:

We're not covering our ground…

Michelle:

We're the same guys.

We're the same!

Jeremy:

I'm like, wait, are we marking… don't put us on your level. Like, are we marking turf here? Like, oh, hey, if I see a Hispanic person, that person can't be my client that doesn't belong to me type of thing?

Taylor:

Going to infiltrate all the…

Jeremy:

Yeah, but this person legit got upset because we were like, okay, that's not how we roll. So they were like, oh, so you don't want to play ball. But then later on, we actually just wasn't headhunting or anything. We had a woman reach out to us from Latin America and she said, Hey, I want to work with you guys. And we went cool, got her contract signed and everything, and suddenly this person was like, no, I don't discuss with competition anymore. I don't talk with competition. They steal my clients. My God the hell. I was like, you showed some colors there, didn't you?

Michelle:

I'm just going to say this for everyone, white people no longer own non-white people. So that is, I don't…

Jeremy:

People, in case you missed the memo…

Michelle:

In case people, yeah, I don't know who's listening to this, I know, but it is no longer legal nor possible, nor acceptable to ever be putting it in that sort of mentality.

Jeremy:

Absolutely.

Michelle:

I also think it's so funny, you ended up, you know what I mean? You kind of schooled her in a way because you were just like, no, we're just going to be authentic. And then it's like, oh, look what authenticity brought more clients. And also you don't own them. I'm sorry. And I actually think this is a good note for anybody who is not based in the US for instance, and used to this level of transparency on these types of talks. I think language learners, especially if they're located across the world, they need to be very, very careful when they're working with teachers, trainers, coaches. Because the reason why I want to put this in very plain language is because I don't want anything to be missed. I don't want it to, you all have seen it how many times we see people online follow me, I am the expert on all of English, and because I look a certain way and I talk a certain way, you want to be like me? I will show you how to be like me. I really think that there's more, not just critical thinking, but kind of more tact that needs to be had. And I don’t know, maybe just more awareness and education, but I do think we need to put the message out a bit more, especially if they're women, but also if they're located in other countries, you have to be really careful who you work with, who you trust, not just because they're going to be playing a role in your lives, but they could be profiting off of you simply because they have targeted you.

Jeremy:

And I actually, one of the red flags that doesn't sound like a red flag, but it's a red flag for me at least, is “I don't see race”

Taylor:

When they say, “I don't see color”

Jeremy:

“I don't see, I don't see race, I don't see color,” right? “Everyone's human,” right? Yeah. Now, I do believe that every human is entitled to decency, to being treated with respect and everything, but for me to say that a white woman and an Asian woman, “I don't see color, they're the same.”

Taylor:

You're saying that you don't see their experience.

Jeremy:

You don't see their experience as an Asian woman. The white woman and the Asian woman have not had the same lived experience inside of the culture, even if they were both born there. And so this is where if someone's like, oh, I work with anyone, I don't see color that just tells me you're a number to them. You're just, I treat everyone equally versus No, look at the individual experience. You met one of our clients, she lives in the UK and she struggles very specifically with being an Asian woman inside of an English culture. By ignoring that we are thus throwing away her things, just saying, well, yo, all you got to do is just talk like this, tips and trick here and you'll be fine. But if we actually looked at, Hey, you are an Asian woman living in an English speaking culture, we can look at that deeper. We can kind of isolate her experience and then find solutions based on that experience. And so I, equity versus equality.

Taylor:

We could say everybody is given the same opportunity, but some people, their starting line is here where it's supposed to be, and then some people, they're starting way back here. Sure, they could both have the opportunity to win, but it's a little bit rigged against them, but that's a whole other topic.

Michelle:

Yeah, it is. Don't worry. The podcast just started. We have a lot to do. You'll be invited back, but I actually wanted to say, Jeremy, that line, we all lived through 2020. We know the whole massive internet wars on: I don't see race, I don't see color. I actually think that we really don't need to be branding it in any certain way. I think that what you described is perfectly fine because from my perspective, you do see it. It's just how you handle it, right? It's like you recognize that people look different, are treated differently, are living different things at the same time you're not targeting, oh my God, that's again the problem with seeing it. People are like, oh, no, I see it. My Asian friend and my other black friend and my other Hispanic friend. I'm so diverse, right?

Taylor:

Look at my proximity to color!

Jeremy:

That was actually very eyeopening to me a couple of years ago. We actually, so I gained over 10,000 followers on TikTok, so a medium-sized platform, and we were talking, we had a couple friends in the Asian community and in the black community who were being more outspoken with events going on, and we started to also chime in and to help with the defense of some of our friends. It was then pointed out to me, Hey, you are speaking for Asian people and for black people having a white lived experience, how about you use your platform instead of putting yourself centric and talking about this? How about you use your platform to uplift other people and to let them speak on their experiences? This was a giant smack in the face to me that I never realized, and for the next 30 days, I actually gave my platform to putting people on. I let them speak of their own experiences, and my biggest rule was it had to be a person of color and it had to be a person who had under 10,000 subscribers or 10,000 followers. So that way we were truly using the platform. I lost almost 2000 followers by doing that, and it was that moment when I realized, you actually don't give a fuck about what? Sorry? You don't give a crap* about…

Michelle:

We're all adults. No, it's okay.

Jeremy:

You don't give a fuck about what people are actually going through. You just wanted me to say it.

Taylor:

I thought it would be more well received coming from a different face...

Jeremy:

And that was a big realization moment for me that just because you can speak on it doesn't necessarily mean you should and it's better to sometimes take the backseat and to give support instead of putting yourself in the front to be the hero type of thing.

Taylor:

Roll credits and that's the title of the podcast.

Michelle:

No, really, I swear that's so good because that is the, I think, and I wanted to say this earlier when you guys were mentioning taking a backseat in Vietnam and needing to recognize that in many times from certain parts of the world, but specifically the US white people tend to think that they have to lead. And I had to tell you that I think some people who are not white externally, and I don't mean to lower my voice, but it's almost like it's a secret. It's almost a secret to them that they don't realize they're not white until they leave the US because, and it depends on where you're from, but meaning when I travel outside the states, people don't automatically think I'm from the US and that's the fact, okay, because I'm working on changing stuff locally. I can't be trying to, yes, I have a global mission, but I know the world is going to be slow to change and accept and whatever, and that's fine, and they don't hear me speaking, and there's a lot that goes into that. But at the same time, I've met other expats living abroad who genuinely did not realize they might look like me, even genuinely did not realize that they were not going to have the same privilege internationally.

Michelle:

Because they are also from places that give them… that have learned how to handle this type of situation, more sensitivity, and so it's almost like, oh my goodness, we are in a massive bubble sometimes I feel in the States because even though we have a lot of work to do living outside the states and traveling a lot, and not only traveling, working, living, I'm now married to a French man. This was not supposed to happen. This was not supposed to be my life. This wasn't the plan. This wasn't the plan. But I am constantly confronting and exposed to these things and I'm needing to also help other people as they navigate it. And a lot of times I'm like, yeah, to my friends of different colors and different backgrounds, I'm like, you realize that this is reality. This is what happens, and we actually, I mean personally, I became so much more grateful to have a place like the US because I recognize that, right?

Jeremy:

Absolutely. No, that was actually what we also realized leaving the US, we had our gripes and everything, and originally we left only to come back and realize, oh, this is actually a pretty cool country, but we've got lots of work to do. But overall, it's a pretty cool place. I think I could do with some cheaper coffee or something, but hey, not the biggest gripe.

Michelle:

Yeah, it's a pretty cool concept for sure. And you won't find another place at this level, right? At this, yes. We are very, very imperfect. We have so much more to do. Oh my God. I don't even want to talk about what happened about a month ago, but I just feel like, yeah, this and this is also really, really great because it's almost as though when I talk on these topics outside the US in particular, it is received as almost like a, okay, Michelle, you and the Asian people might care, but I don't think the white people care. And here look at you. Look at both. No, I'm kidding, but I think this is exactly, no, this is the point, right? Conversations that bring people from different walks of life together. I think that is the key. Let's just close out because we have spent a long time, the final episode will not be this long, but we've spent a while now talking. That's okay. But it's two people, so it's a little different. I want to ask both of you what you think about the future of the industry, and obviously we've talked multiple times and privately about the problems and about all the horrible things that exist. I don't know if we're going towards optimism, but where do you think we're going in terms of the future?

Taylor:

AI has definitely changed the game for sure. We know that, and we are still at the baby stages of AI. We have no way to conceptualize what it will look like even two years from now. We went from nothing to everything. We have so much AI. I am of the opinion that AI is a tool and it is a tool that can be used in such genius ways, and so I'm excited to learn more about it and implemented. I know that a lot of things are going to become impersonal, if that makes sense. I know that a lot of things are going to start to feel impersonal. Language learning is commodified in a lot of ways, and I know that a lot of things are packaged courses, and I think as long as we still have that human touch, I think that it can be good. I feel like a lot of bridges are going to be, a lot of gaps are going to be bridged. I feel like a lot of barriers are going to be broken. If people are smart. It's hard to say what the industry will look like though, in the next 10 years or so, but I'm optimistic. I'm optimistic.

Jeremy:

Yeah. I'm also optimistic. I believe that at least this is my personal take, just on my own research, I believe that the new wave of technology has created a new environment that will require teachers to up their game. Back 20 years ago or so, you could literally just go out to Cambodia or Vietnam and you'd probably get a job, and this is where we got a lot of criminals leaving the country lying about things and then doing naughty things with their students and things.

The online wave, or especially during Covid, brought up the content creator, the English content creator, which has now commodified like Taylor said, to where you've got book clubs, vocabulary list apps everywhere, but I believe now it's been too commodified to the point where anyone wanting to learn English can just pick up their phone and you have thousands of options. So I believe that what this is going to do is it's going to force a lot of them to drop because they either can't sustain life or it's going to require the next level that people are going to have to come out with something that gives real results that isn't just like, oh, hey, cute English, here we go. What's the difference between geese and goose?

I believe that now we are going to be asking teachers, Hey, no, you've got a niche down. You're teaching communication, perfect pronunciation skills. Zoom calls, how to get a job. I believe that the new wave of technology and how things are going are going to force teachers to become more niched and more unique in order to stand out from a very loud industry. And so I feel that if you are a teacher who is doing something new, even if it hasn't caught on yet, I strongly believe that it will catch on and that this will be the new level of education.

Michelle:

That is a fantastic answer, by the way. That is such an optimistic answer. I'm just like, oh God. Oh, ai, okay. Because I am in it and I actually think it's good to kind of step back and be like, yeah, actually it could be forcing change in a way that could be for everyone's benefit to increase the quality. It's something that we all hate. I know the oversaturation of low quality material. Oh my God.

Taylor:

Don’t say this…. Confusion. I think what's happening right now is AI right now… picks up on the current common, I'm just going to call it, I dunno what else to call it. The current common, the thing that's usual…

Jeremy:

Status quo?

Taylor:

Yeah, sure. Kind of. It's kind of like that, but it's a little off. So when AI acts like a teacher, it's acting like all of the big teachers that it thinks are the most popular. So if you're standing out from that, if you are different, if you are the person in the middle of all the things and people and everything, if you are the one standing with them being different, the right people are going to look at you. You're going to stand out to the right person as long as you are doing something different.

Jeremy:

Well, I do believe that it is also going to, this is a personal opinion, but I do feel it's a disservice to serve everyone, and when I say serve everyone, I'm talking beginner, advanced, different, every culture, every creed, kid, adult kid, adult. Yeah, I'm serving everyone. I think that this acts as a disservice because with every piece of content you create, or if you're an online teacher, at least we are, you want to attract and create allergies. You know what I mean? You want people to have those visceral reactions to you. I want a person to look at my content and go, I hate this guy. Not for me, unfollow me. Get out of here. Because then there are going to be people like, oh my God, I love this couple. I love what they're doing. And so I feel that when you try to appeal to everyone, you're actually doing a disservice to them because you're not getting them to where they need to be.

Taylor:

You're being a diet version of what they need.

Jeremy:

They need full, you're just trying to get the numbers. Thank you.

Michelle:

Yeah, and that's actually what you see a lot on platforms. I don't know if you guys have experience on those freelance platforms or language learning platforms, basically. It's a lot of that. It's open to everyone ages two to 200 come learn English with me. And I'm like, you cannot be serious. Actually, first of all, because I'm not going to say it's a lack of qualifications. I think it's just we all kind of have our own strengths, and when you serve different learner populations, you really learn really quickly what your strengths are, and you learn that it's also easier to just lean into those rather than try to adapt yourself, and people burn themselves out this way.

Taylor:

Trying to adapt to every single one of their very different clients.

Michelle:

Which is also why after a package of five, a package of 10, people start to be like, you're kind of telling me the same thing. We went over this last week, or you're kind of recycling the same material. Yeah, because your teacher, your instructor, does not have the capacity to be making personalized lesson plans for you every single time because she probably doesn't remember what you guys talked about last time, right?

Jeremy:

Oh yeah.

Michelle:

Yeah. It's a good way to get a lot of experience, but I really realized in terms of the professional end of things, it's like the quality can be very, very questionable due to this.

Jeremy:

No, absolutely. And yeah, I believe it causes some discord within the community as well. I'm very much for strong communities and I believe that that's kind of how we build, and so in my community, I want my ideal client preferably, but I know I'm not going to get everyone, but at least like-mindedness here for the same goal. We all believe in helping one another. If you come into my community and you have an individualistic mindset of what can I get from everyone? You're not going to last just, if I don't snap at you, my community's going to eat you alive. So yeah. But yeah.

Michelle:

This has been really, really great. I know you guys have to go. We are at time, but also past time, so I really, really appreciate both of you, first of all, for being who you are in the field. I think that it's so easy to go online and talk about the difference between geese and goose and do all of that, and you have chosen not to. So thank you for hopefully being on the right side of history. I hope all of us are, I don't know, maybe we'll get washed out and robots will take over.

Taylor:

I'm not sure. Who knows? Thank you so much for having us on now. We've reciprocated, we've both been on each other's podcast now. I appreciate it. It was a good conversation.

Jeremy:

I'm excited to see how it grows, what type of audience you attract and everything. We actually were very excited to come on here. There are a couple podcasts that once we kind of look at it, we're like, oh no, we're busy that month. Have a good day. But we actually really enjoy having conversations with you.