Michelle:
Welcome, Miss Heather K Ling. Oh my god, I love your handle so much by the way, because I've always loved K as a name. I wish I was named, but that's okay.
Heather:
It's my Chinese name.
Michelle:
Really? (Heather: Yeah, KK) Oh, okay, perfect. So yeah, that's like's like double good because I also like Heather and I also, I'm only going to say this on the record once, but I don't put my last name out there because number one, I had to go through kind of a nasty cyberstalking thing a few years back. So I'm like, okay, so I'm like off, off, off of everything, right. Number two, I have one of those really unique last names, so if you try to search for me, I'm one of two to exist and so let's not do that. So that's why I use my last initial. But you on the other hand, yeah, I love the way it sounds also because it's very, I don't know, it's like a nice balance to the three parts. Dunno how you feel about your name, but I love it. Thank You.
Heather:
I appreciate it.
Michelle:
So why don't we jump into, I know a bit about you, but why don't you let our listeners know who you are. You can start and then we'll work from there.
Heather:
So I'm Heather. I am a pediatric dietician by day and an audiobook narrator. By night I just started audiobook narration, but that's really it about me, short and sweet.
Michelle:
Yeah, that's a great superhero intro also because it's like saving lives during the day and also saving not, I don't want to say saving lives. Saving, yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I love the day night because I also think that's how you manage your life. You go to work like hospital clinic during the day and then at night you're in your closet. I think also everyone can see my closet. I moved my red dress today, it was showing up, but it's really, really awesome I think because so many people feel that maybe, I don't know, we know what it's like to live and work a nine to five and it's like I don't care how passionate you are, things burn you out. And to have something to kind of offset that I think is a fantastic, your name, I feel like it's balanced, so I feel like it's like, yeah, all around. Yes, exactly. So you and I connected because you posted on thread's conversation with your father on Yeah, maybe we just want to fill everyone in how we got connected, what that conversation was about, and we can go a little bit into how you were raised as well.
Heather:
Yeah, so our thread's conversation or my thread's posts that you responded to was in response to when I asked my dad his opinion about these little business cards I had developed, it was just like the mock. And I took a picture of it and I asked my dad what he thought and his response was, it's so Asian. And he was like, don't you want to market yourself to a more international audience and not to limit yourself to putting yourself in this box of being Asian?
And on my post I kind of asked authors, would you choose to not hire me based on the fact that I'm Asian and my marketing material had Asian graphics on it, essentially, would that deter an author from hiring me? It just kind of brings along my dad's view is in order to survive as an immigrant that you had to assimilate and assimilation was survival. And he didn't say in a bad way he wanted, he wanted it to be like, I want to help you. And my view is if you made yourself more marketable to everybody. And he felt like being Asian limited me and he wants the best for me. So that's why he made that comment.
Michelle:
And Asian design or marketing material, it was, I think you told me before, was it clouds or
Heather:
It was clouds? So in Asian artwork there's the circular pretty clouds and that's what it was.
Michelle:
See, I think this is interesting because it's perception, right? You see clouds and you'd have to know the reference to be connecting it to that. I think some people looking at, I haven't seen what you, I can imagine. I know what you're talking
Heather:
About. I forgot I left it downstairs. You
Michelle:
Know what, we're going to add this in if you agree to the show notes so that people can see the card that you're talking about. But I feel it's a matter of history, personal history, background. I have a sister that studied art and so through her I was exposed to a lot of different forms and of course I can recognize things. Would everyone, even if they were born Asian, would they recognize it? I think that's the interesting thing. You mentioned that you were actually one of those lucky few raised in a non ultra traditional Asian American family. Can you talk a little bit about that? Your family family's kind of cultural history?
Heather:
Yeah, it's pretty complicated, but I feel like every immigrant story is complicated. So my dad is from Hong Kong. He immigrated here in his twenties I think, and he is Chinese. I speak Cantonese at home, so that's pretty straightforward. My mom's side is a little different. This is where it gets a little convoluted is that she's from Vietnam and she's considered Vietnamese, but she is ethnically Chinese also. There's a China town in every country. So that's kind of where she grew up in Vietnam. But she also speaks Cantonese, she speaks Cantonese, she speaks Vietnamese, she speaks Mandarin, and of course English. So at home I was raised speaking Cantonese. That's the difference. So my mom was a Vietnamese refugee and my dad was a Chinese immigrant from Hong Kong.
Michelle:
Was it a choice between the two of them to choose Cantonese as the home language?
Heather:
So I guess this is where patriarchy comes into play. I mean, my dad doesn't speak Vietnamese, but my mom speaks Cantonese. So actually even on my mom's side, for those of us who do speak another language, so besides English, we all speak Cantonese.
Heather:
I think at home they all spoke mostly Cantonese to each other. So it was also more of the natural progression just to teach their children Cantonese. None of us, no Vietnamese. And I think it was almost intentional because when we go to family gatherings, the vietnamese brothers and sisters can speak Vietnamese to each other and no one else understands them.
Michelle:
Wow. There are so many layers to unpack with this. So let's go slowly, let's go piece by piece. I am wondering, let's just back up to your mother's story, meaning her family kind of background was in mainland China and then she was born and raised in Vietnam. Is that right? Yes. Okay. I'm
Heather:
Not really sure,
Michelle:
Sorry.
Heather:
I'm not really sure when their families moved to Vietnam.
Michelle:
We
Heather:
Are not really sure. We haven't really asked too much. There's just so much history.
Michelle:
Yeah, yeah. Well the reason I'm wondering is because also her experience is also a story of immigration. Many people think that Asian equals one country and no, not at all. And also not even one culture. And it's not about splitting it apart, it's more that part of the family had to move or she at least had to move, integrate, assimilate into Vietnam. I'm wondering how she was treated, welcomed, that sort of stuff. I don't know if, and then your parents also, so I assume then that they didn't meet in Vietnam if your dad doesn't speak Vietnamese.
Heather:
So they met here in the us
Michelle:
So that's another layer of it, right? Because it's two separate immigration stories that then kind of fuse here and then influenced the decision to, I guess how they raised you, what languages or what language you were exposed to at home. And for sure patriarchy always comes back to rear its lovely head all the time. All the time, especially in Eastern cultures. So let's kind of then unpack. Do you have siblings?
Heather:
I do. So I have an older sister who is actually also my half sister, which kind of convolutes the story more, but she immigrated or she was a refugee with my mom from Vietnam. I
Michelle:
See. So
Heather:
She was born in Vietnam. We don't know who her father is or if he's still alive, if he passed during the war, who knows. But she's my half sister and she's 11 years older than me.
Michelle:
And then this is your kind of, you grew up together and you were raised in it. So then does she also speak canto? Yeah,
Heather:
She also speaks Cantonese and she doesn't know any Vietnamese either.
Michelle:
Yeah, that's really the point about shutting people out maybe as a form of a literal barrier formed by language. I think that is a universal experience, number one. But when it's intentional, there is an element of malice that I think, I don't know, have you ever considered, and this is more of a personal thing, rather than family obligation learning Vietnamese, just so you can have a little insider window.
Heather:
I mean I think maybe when I was younger, but now there are just so many languages and there are others I would be more interested in learning than Vietnamese. I think I just had a lot of exposure and the fact that I never grew so curious that I begged to learn kind of indicates that I never truly had a passion for that language for whatever reason. So not entirely.
Michelle:
What are the other languages then that you think you'd rather learn?
Heather:
So I mean going through history of learning and going to school. So I learned Spanish in high school as most kids do. I learned it because we had to pick a foreign language and Spanish was supposedly easier than French. I totally regretted that decision when I grew up by the way. Really? I think French is the most beautiful language out there. And I actually tried to take, I took a few courses in French because I did a short study abroad in France on the microbiology of cheese and wine.
Michelle:
Oh wow, okay. Where in France?
Heather:
In Burgundy.
Michelle:
Okay, yeah. Makes sense.
Heather:
Yeah, so that was clearly a lot of fun. The course was taught in English of course, but getting around we're in Clooney, which was the small town. So not everyone spoke English, so even a little bit of French could get you a little further, but it is hard language to learn and a difficult language to practice. So there's that. But also during the covid lockdown, I got into KDRs and then I started learning Korean just to better understand the nuances because within in Korean, since we're talking specifically about that, there's a hierarchy and that hierarchy is expressed through their language and it doesn't come across in subtitles. And I felt like learning the language would bring about all these cultural nuances that as an English speaker reading English subtitles, I would've missed out on
Michelle:
Number one. It's so funny that you said that you chose to learn Spanish because that's also why I chose to learn Spanish. I think we don't have as uniform nor standardized education system in the country, but most of us do have to choose oftentimes between Spanish or French. I don't know why it's always these two, but yeah, I heard also, yeah, just take Spanish, it's easier and it's the closest thing to English and it's an easy A, and I mean once you get up there intermediate and above, you're conjugating a lot. So it's not an easy A actually, and I always say this, I never, never thought I would learn French much less have it to be such a massive aspect of my life. But I don't know if you were told this, I was always told, why are you an Asian person learning Spanish? It's like my school told me I had to choose. Did you get those comments?
Heather:
No, I think everyone just kind of knew it was a requirement in school. But speaking of an Asian person learning Spanish, who also has another language under their belt already, several of my cousins are fairly fluent in Spanish. One has lived in El Salvador, the other has studied in Barcelona. My cousin's husband is a Spanish minor. I have my other cousin who actually I think this weekend is getting married and to a Colombian, so he speaks Spanish also. So there's actually a lot of Spanish speakers in my family.
Michelle:
Yeah. And originally you said from New Jersey, is that correct? Okay. But right now you're living in Texas? Yes.
Heather:
Yeah.
Michelle:
We know how wonderful it is to have Spanish skills in all parts of the us, but for sure towards the south southern border. I wonder if it's also kind of become more popular or accepted to be multilingual, bilingual, at least in this country. I don't know if you've kind of thought about this as well, but in my area of Washington DC born and raised area, there are so many people trying to get their kids to absorb languages. So they'll do those multi immersion programs like those super efficient, do math in Spanish and then history and French. And then I don't know, in your family, your network, anything, have you seen that happen for the next generation?
Heather:
Yeah, so when I was still living in the northeast, one of my friends, she was going to put her daughter in a Spanish immersion school, but they also speak Spanish at home. Her husband is from Spain and she taught Spanish also. So it only made sense for them to want to incorporate that more solidly in their child's life. And then here there are also a lot of Spanish immersion schools here in Texas. So I do see it. I think Spanish is one language that's a little easier in the US because there are so many Spanish speakers.
Heather:
I do find the ones who want their children to speak their native language. It's a lot harder, especially when only one parent speaks it and then they'll have the intention of teaching. For example, Chinese, they had the intention of teaching Chinese to their child, but then because it's easier to speak to their spouse in English, then it all gets muddled and they're like, we're just going to just all speak English.
Michelle:
I think the utility of languages is something that we can recognize because we have a multilingual society, but I don't see yet. And so by the way, I agree, I agree with everything you're saying. I just also realized that so many people are focused on getting, it's almost like get the language in, go and go and pack the brain with all these different things. I wonder if we can talk about the expectation or the burden of being a speaker of a certain language in a family setting. So no matter which language it is that your parents chose or your family chose, how did you live that out? So you're a canto speaker, which by the way, oh God, I feel like we should go over the difference between canto and Mandarin first. Can you talk about that?
Heather:
There's so much history involved, but China is a massive country. There are so many different languages within China, but the national language is Mandarin. So no matter what Chinese language you speak, everyone does learn Mandarin. And then in the Guangdong area of China, which is the southeast area, there are Cantonese speakers. That's the region for Cantonese. And even with that, there are nuances in English in the US there's the southern accent, there's the northern accent accent, the Boston New York accent. So even Cantonese can sound different, but Hong Kong specifically speaks Cantonese. So since that's where my dad is from, that's the language I learned. There's also more history because of the British colonization. There's also a lot of English lone words in the Cantonese language, at least if you're from Hong Kong.
Michelle:
So this illustrates perfectly the difference between accent and dialect because I was often asked as a Mandarin child, okay, well it's Chinese, so basically Cantonese is just a different way of saying it. No, no, I can't understand anything. Cantonese people who weren't exposed to Mandarin or forced to learn it a young age, you can kind of get certain words ish, but it's not at all the same. And then on top of that, yes, you add in the history with Great Britain, all that stuff. So you essentially have this mishmash of wonderful, it's a very technical term by the way, of all of these influences. And that also further solidifies the point that Hong Kong itself is quite different from the other canto speaking parts of the region. Okay. In your family, how did this then play out? How did this kind of, I don't know, think back to when you were like Baby Heather, a little canto speaker and also bilingual English speaker. How did that process in your head?
Heather:
So there's so many nuances to all this considering also my mom is from Vietnam and speaks Cantonese. So if you listen to my family speak from the ones who married Cantonese speakers from Hong Kong versus those who married other Vietnamese speakers,
Heather:
There’s actually an accent in my family. It ranges from very Hong Kong to ranging to having a Vietnamese accent when they speak Cantonese. But for me growing up, I actually didn't learn English until I went to school.
They spoke strictly Cantonese to me at home. They were in the us, she will learn English going to school, but she won't learn Chinese, so we're only going to speak to her in Cantonese at home. So at first it was fine until I went to school and I realized I didn't understand what everyone was saying and I had to take ESL and their parents were like, oh, but that must be so jarring for a child. There would be trauma, et cetera. Honestly, I was so young, I remember a few things. I remember not understanding the teacher's instructions, but I don't feel trauma from it. Was it a little scary? Sure. I think the biggest part was I didn't speak to others for a very long time. The teachers knew I could talk, but I guess the other classmates were like, there was one time we were playing tag, and I remember this very clearly and I shouted something at one other student and she stopped in the middle of the game of tag turned around and was like, you can talk. Oh my God. And I was like, yes, I had other friends, but we were just overall more quiet. So I think that was the biggest influence in my life with language and being bilingual and people not thinking I could speak versus at home we all spoke Cantonese, so I didn't feel a difference.
Michelle:
That is so much more common than I think we realize going, being born and raised in the country, but being sent to ESL because your family isn't a native English speaking environment and therefore you didn't learn, how would you have absorbed the language? Right?
Heather:
Tv?
Michelle:
Yeah, exactly. Or grocery store. I, I've had obviously family members that were sent. I think the difference for me was I have an older sister and they kind of learned already with her, we have to be more intentional or else this is going to happen again. So it's not like a whole trauma thing, but it was a surprising thing for the family to be putting their kid that they consider, you're born here, you're American, and go. And it's like, no, wait here, preliminary step. So I had Mandarin completely at home, but then when I went to school, I think the fact that I was already in sports from the age of one, so I had coaches and stuff, so I didn't talk either by the way, that was often fused together with the Asian female stereotype. And I don't think I really found a way to vocally express until 11 or because you're just what you just talked about. I probably said five words before that age. So was it the same for your sister?
Heather:
No. So my sister and I are very different. So again, she's 11 years older than me and she went to schools that were predominantly white. She was the token Asian. And when I grew up, I went to a predominantly white school also, but then we moved to one that had a lot more diversity. There was a huge Asian population.
Heather:
And the difference between our upbringing is that she remained in a school system where she also had to learn to assimilate. So a lot of her views are similar actually to my dad's views, that you have to erase as much as your root identity as you can. And there were comments like, oh, they're more Asian even though they're not Asian. This non-Asian is more Asian than my sister. And they would make comments like that because for her survival, she also had to do something like assimilate. And now that she's getting older, she wants to add more culture back to her life.
Heather:
Whereas for me, I grew up in the generation of Asian pride. So
That was how I grew up in the school system and with the Asian population that I grew up in, it was you were proud of your heritage and Asian pride was a huge thing for me growing up. So I was able to retain a lot more of my background in a way without feeling the urge to have to remove it, being confident in myself as someone who is quieter, who is okay with sitting on the outskirts and observing in because that's who I am. Whereas my sister is the opposite. She is louder, more boisterous. She walked into a room and there she is. But again, that was her way of assimilating and surviving.
Michelle:
I feel that it really is dependent on not only which country, and yes, you keep saying, I forget which word, like all this backstory in history woven in, and it's always so specific and that's exactly the way to look at it. So even in the same family, and my sister and I are really different also, it's also because born at different times, family dynamic was different. I was raised by my grandparents primarily. So all that changes. And when you look at how the outside world kind of views us, they're like, oh, so sisters, okay. Oh, Chinese American family, okay, it's the same. And it's like it is not the same. It is not even the same between sisters. It is not the same between cousins. It's not the same between second and third and aunts and uncles and kind of a personal, but looking at the generational impact of it, did your parents retain a certain accent then when they started speaking English? Would you say that? And the reason I ask this is because that's also a difference in my family. It's very, very different depending on the backstory.
Heather:
So in Hong Kong, my dad learned English there. So he came to the US already having English knowledge and he worked really hard on erasing his accent.
That being said, he does have an accent. My mom came as an adult also. My mom's English is actually not very good at all. She has worked hard and she would actually record herself and then listen back to it because it's hard. You think you're saying or pronouncing a word correctly. I remember one word specifically, she would have her recorder and I would record how to say it, the specific word is shape. For some reason she couldn't say the word shape. And she was like, no, I'm saying it. And we're like, okay, well why don't you record yourself saying it and you can listen and you can compare. And she kept saying shop, shop. So she had to practice a lot and record herself over and over and over again until she could get the word shape. So her English isn't as good. So I mainly speak to her in Cantonese, unless we're having an argument and I'm like, well, I'm angry now. You don't have to understand what I'm saying. I'm going to start spewing English really fast and you're just going to be lost. So in my family, so the Hong Kong speakers all speak pretty good English. And then the ones from Vietnam who also speak Vietnamese, it varies just on how much effort they
Took to go to school. I have a doctor in the family and of course his English is great. So it still ranges, like you said in the family, it just depends on what they ended up focusing on.
Michelle:
The general, how do I want to put this, Hollywood and media have not been kind nor accurate in the demonstration and representation. I can't even call it representation of, and we're talking Asian, we're not even talking specifically Chinese or parts of China, that kind of family model. Because I think I surprise people when I tell them that most of that generation in my family does not speak with that stereotypical Chinese accent. It's something that is both, it's great we can have a conversation way, learning, learning moment, but it's also a little frustrating because it's like how could you actually think that people aren't living different things? And so you mentioned someone working as a doctor, needing to interface with patients every single day is really, really different than somebody who doesn't need to use the language or maybe also chose not to put extra work on their accent. So I'm wondering if we can shift into talking more about the intersections of just everything we just spoke about, but also your work both as a dietician and also in the podcast, not podcasts. You don't have podcasts yet in the narration, audiobook kind of sphere. So how do we want to do this? Have you talk about your day job first?
Heather:
Yeah, so in my day job, I am a pediatric dietician. Most of my job is helping kids grow. So yes, obesity is an epidemic and I do see obese children. And I also see the other end. I see malnutrition because not all infants grow and thrive as they should, and that's essentially my job. But here in Texas there's a huge Spanish speaking population, but we also have a huge Vietnamese speaking population and also Arabic speaking population. So I have to apply my recommendations to make sure that they are given in a way that is applicable to their life and their culture. Because if they aren't speaking English fluently and I have to use an interpreter, likely they aren't eating the same things that every other American eats. So I have to make sure my recommendations are applicable to them so that they can actually implement it versus like, oh, she said I should eat this. And we don't eat that in our house. So it wouldn't make sense to give instructions or recommendations in that matter.
Michelle:
This is a level of consciousness I don't think most people are taking. Right. And awareness, curious to know, did you personally take this on yourself? Did you go through a training program? Can we create a training program? If one doesn't exist? How did you come to have this perspective?
Heather:
Yeah, so coming from my Asian background, we eat family style, but in the more western regions you eat with your own plate and the US recommendations are using my plate to designate what you eat and how you should eat and how much you eat, that's a lot harder to do when you're eating family style. So that's one thing I learned. Diversity is I think an issue across all fields. And it is difficult to, there are people who talk about it, especially those who work with a lot of minorities in the US that we have to adapt the US guidelines to help these families that don't eat the same way as your typical American. So there is a population that is very conscious of that. And I do see it on social media. I see it amongst my peers. There are also different listservs where a dietician who has no experience in a specific culture ask like, oh, I have a patient who is asking about this food item. Can someone tell me about it and how we can incorporate this or do we not? Just to get a better understanding. And through those emails, sometimes you can tell just how lacking the education is,
But it's also really hard. The world is huge. You can't expect one person to know every aspect, especially food culture in every country. So a lot of it is now you have to listen. A part of my job is listening and knowing what questions to ask so I can understand better what food means to them in their culture and how they present food and how they eat. That's also different in Americans. Every family is different. They might eat a certain way, maybe they all eat individually, maybe they all eat together, not one family is the same. And if you keep that in mind that every American family is also different, you can apply that to a family that isn't American or that they are American, but still eat more to their cultural background. And it's a lot of research and looking up, but just truly understanding what do you eat, how do you eat, and how is it presented in the family?
Michelle:
Yeah, I actually think that this is so critical, not just because we have health problems or obesity is running kind of rampant and kind of all over, to be honest. So I think it's really relevant for now because we were already given the melting pot kind of model before, but it's even more now, I would say not necessarily in that beautiful American dream way, but in the way that we are not just redefining constantly in this country what we understand about so many things, but we see it in the way that even American food has evolved. So take away all the other, the mess of international influences. Look at what's happened in the country itself, how people characterize it. I was recently asked, and I'm asked quite frequently when I'm living outside the states, okay, so what are traditional American foods? Or they don't say traditional.
They say, what are American foods? And I'm clarifying, you mean traditional 1950s traditional where we're going to 18 hundreds homestead time traditional. And they're like, no, what does an average American family eat? And I'm like, that is such a hard question for me to answer. It's also an impossible question. And they're like, no, but you depending on region. Exactly, but you must have specific foods. I'm like, you mean a hot dog? I'm just trying to say, I'm like, what are you trying to get at? And it's like, okay, so wait, I don't understand then. And I've actually, people have had the audacity, and it's not just the audacity, it's like blatant ignorance to then say, oh, but maybe you don't know because you're Asian. And maybe they assume that I just stuck in my community that I don't know how the non-Asians live. And they're like, well, is that really objective? And then they have to hear it from a white person actually to believe that there is no uniformity. But that is why your work is so crucial and so necessary. I am thinking about all the little kids, you do pediatric work. So that is something that is an area that if you can start it there, those are patterns and those are habits that they can take for the rest of their lives. That is, I'm just going to silent applause you without hitting my microphone.
Heather:
There's so much to it, especially because even though my patient or client, however you want to word it, is the child, children don't cook. They don't buy their own groceries. So in the end, the change has to come from the parent or the caregiver or the guardian. And a lot of times that's where the struggle is.
Heather:
And It isn't until the child is in their teens where they're like, well, I can make the conscious decision, but in the end it needs to be a buy-in from the entire family. So you have to persuade everybody, this is what our goals are for the family that will most benefit this child that I'm seeing, but will also benefit everyone else in the family because it's not just the kid eating this one way, the pattern is across the entire family. So it makes it really difficult.
Michelle:
Yeah, this is something I lived myself also as a multi-generational household with trying to, I struggled with a lot of different things and it was for different reasons. I needed to modify my diet. This was seen as, you're forgetting your roots, you are forgetting what we stand for in this family. Once you bring your salads in here or once you, and why I even started cooking was really just to take control over this posted today about the whole Thanksgiving thing. But essentially it's like you have to see it as a unit, not just because, oh, cultures are collectivists versus individualists. It's more than that. It's like the reality is everyone is eating together. Italians eat together. Do you know what I mean? It's not just Asian people. So you have to really know how to adapt it for that individual family and what they go through. When you meet with people, do you meet with them together? So obviously the kid is there with the parents? Yes. Okay. Yeah. Yes,
Heather:
They all have to. So it has to be at least one caregiver and then the kidney.
Michelle:
Yeah. Have you received any more direct pushback from other adults? I'm so set in my ways this has worked in, what do you mean? Rice is unhealthy? Do you know what I mean? Have you actually had more
Heather:
Aggression? So rice isn't unhealthy. It can be incorporated into a very healthy diet. I have had patients tell me that they don't like to eat their Mexican food at home that their parents make because it's unhealthy.
Heather:
And that's not true. Our ethnic cultural food is not unhealthy. It can just be made slightly different. American diet is not inherently unhealthy. We just have to make changes. So it's the same across the board.
All our food items, it's how we put it together, it's how we cook it. So it's not all inherently unhealthy, they just need tweaks. But I have received pushback. Sometimes they're not ready for change, and that's okay. Whenever you're ready for change, you can come back. And other times maybe the kid and one of the parents, or both the parents are interested, but it's grandmother who does the grocery shopping and the cooking. Or maybe the one comment that I've had is, well, dad works and he needs his soda, so we need to keep the soda in the house. And that's the hardest pushback because who am I to say how your family should be run? So I have to figure out a way to work around those things. But again, if they're not ready for change, can't, I'm not here to change you. I'm here to provide recommendations and support to help you make the changes that would benefit you. But if you don't want them, I'm not forcing them on you,
Michelle:
Right? Yeah. These are considerations for you to take and for you to implement in a realistic way, they are, it would be ideal. But also reality is that if you're in a certain family dynamic, and you certainly don't want to be adding, I think to the complexity of family dynamics, ah, that Heather, that dog, it is just like she told us this and what does she know? So there is so much care and sensitivity, I think that goes into this work. When you see your patients, is it one-off sessions? Do you follow them over a period of time?
Heather:
So it depends on their disease state, how sick they are, how much they need. So I can see weekly, some I will see once a month, every three months, six months, it all varies.
Michelle:
I wonder if you do this privately also. I kind of feel like, do you do this privately? I don't. No. Okay, I don't do this what it should be. So
Heather:
Private is a whole other animal to tackle, and then it's also one, getting insurance for myself, but also, do you want to accept health insurances? And that's a whole other monster. But if I want to do private practice and not accept insurance, I could charge a lot. I've browsed you browsed people's rates. Oh, $200 for an initial assessment, what? But I think that's great for those who want to do that. But what I do is also very specialized and I want to see the sick kids. So going private just doesn't fit my vision of what I want to do for myself. Also, you don't get paid if they don't show up.
Michelle:
Yeah. Yes. I think all client work is kind of one-on-one client or whatever. Client work is kind of the same. It's all, yes, there are different hurdles and some people need to have insurance considerations and there are other things to get set up. However, it's always the same. It's like when you receive a cancellation and you're like, okay, well for me, I have a cancellation policy, but even on top of that, I'm always like, okay, so then that means that, are you really in this? Do you really want to be, you can't cancel five times in a row and tell me that you are just okay throwing the money away, not making any progress with you. So unfortunately, I'm in this for more than the money because yeah, there's not enough money in the world too. I feel like incentivize me to do something I'm not going to believe in. So yeah. Alright, let's flip to your night kind of stuff. Okay. Tell me how all this intersects in the world of audiobook narration.
Heather:
So I don't even know how to start. Well, let's start with the industry in itself. So speaking of diversity and having across all fields, having to diversify, et cetera, there is now a huge push for authenticity. They want authentic narrators, narrating books of, for example, if there is an Asian inspired story or an Asian author, they would prefer for the authenticity of the narrator, meaning they would want an Asian narrator also. So there is a push for that. And I don't think, because in the end, your voice, when you listen to an audiobook, you don't see their face.
Heather:
So it's really easy to just not know who the narrator is. But I think again, just the push for authenticity, not faking accents. Again, accent work is a huge thing too. And that's also a discussion. How far do you push the accent before it becomes uncomfortable? That's a discussion that I hear on a lot of different, or I read on a lot of different narrator forums, but even for me, this is how I speak. So if I were to make an Asian accent, I have to generate that. There's so many nuances, but ultimately in the field of narration, they are trying to diversify just the type of narrators that they have.
Michelle:
It's been kind of this oversimplify. I mean the whole thing is oversimplified all the time, but it's oversimplified to say Asian character because again, what does Asian mean? We have to get more specific. But Asian character, Asian actor, Asian voice, Asian, look, what are we actually talking about? Because everyone sounds kind of different. Also, I don't know if you're familiar with the American accent, but it's a thing and it's something that I know what people are talking about, but not everyone sounds that way. I personally changed my voice intentionally when I was in high school because I received pure feedback that I sounded so weird and I didn't want that. I wanted to feel accepted. And so I changed it later to be more natural, but for a certain time, yeah, talking about faking accents, I do think that is something that many people who come from immigrant backgrounds, you walk that really early, I'm kind of imitating, but it's also me, but it's also like it's not totally me. And you kind of try on different characters and voices and personas,
Heather:
Even like you mentioned the Asian accent in school, but it also varies by region. Oh my God. Oh my God, yes, yes. I remember my Philly friends, my Philly Asian friends, they sounded different. And then there's so many different cultural nuances. It's not even cultural as in my cultural background, but cultural as in society, the societal culture. Yeah,
Michelle:
Not ethnic culture. We are looking really micro at this point, right? Yeah. Okay, great. Born and raised Washington DC metro area. Go. Just trying to say this in a way that everyone understands 10 kilometers that way. And you'll find someone who does not speak anything like me, and they can look exactly like me. They can have a family background, a family story that's as complicated as mine and interwoven and from the same regions, the output, what comes out at the end. I just kind of feel like there should not be an expectation anymore that everything kind of track in a uniform way. And you obviously exemplify that. I feel like many people do. So, okay. Let's talk specifically about your audiobook work. The
Heather:
One that I'm currently working on is called the Dragon Spy.
And it is really cool. I'm not just saying it just because I'm the narrator, but the premise is one, it's a historical young adult fiction. So it's placed in the Cold War with Germany and West Berlin, east Berlin, how it's split. And then on top of that, my character is an Asian American, and the author is actually really good. He actually touched upon, oh, the amount of times that someone questioned whether or not I was an American or whatever that was in there. So that was nice to see. And it's also fantasy, so it's like spy thriller, fantasy, historical fiction. And I was also cast for that, for authenticity because the main character was Asian American.
Michelle:
I'm wondering if we can come full circle and tie this into the conversation with your dad about boxing yourself in. So can you answer your feelings on, I think on the one hand it's great for authenticity and for all that, does it limit you? How do you see this?
Heather:
So right now, if anything, all the authors who are interested in me are interested in me because of my Asian American background. The first book that I did was also Asian, although the first book was a Korean American, not Chinese American. But again, there's only so many of us. So us
Michelle:
Being,
Heather:
Us being audio us as an Asian,
Michelle:
Yeah, yeah, us being Asian American, audiobook narrators, right? So yeah, this is, yeah,
Heather:
Yeah. So there was talking about accents and whatnot. There was a Korean accent in there that was required, not required. He didn't push. The author did not push me to have to force this Korean accent, and I didn't feel comfortable with doing it because it didn't feel right to me. So I actually didn't, I made it more of a character change than an accent change, but everyone's a little different. But I didn't feel to my core right about creating this Korean father accent that felt in my mind would be, I don't know, insulting what was the point of my story?
Michelle:
I think the point is do you feel like it boxes you in versus, okay, yes, yes, yes. Okay.
Heather:
So if anything, I feel like me being Asian American is what's giving me work right now. Do I want to branch out to other things that are not Asian American focused? 100%. But if this is what's giving me work, I am down for it. And when I audition, it's not like Heather Ling is a very neutral name.
Heather:
If you Google it, you'll actually see it's a flower. The entire name Heather Ling is a bush. Is it really? Yes, it's a flowering purple bush. But you don't see that name and inherently think, oh, she's Asian, especially Asians can't really pronounce Heather at East Line either. It's a very British English name. My mom struggles with pronouncing my name. So it is clearly not focused on being just Asian. So I feel like when I'm auditioning, they're not choosing my voice, not because I'm Asian, they're choosing my voice. They're not choosing my voice because they found another one that's a better fit. And that's okay. That's just a part of the job. But currently all the work that I am getting is because they want an Asian American to narrate their work.
Michelle:
I feel people who know a bit about the subculture in this country and the pressures granted, I don't know if you live this, but audiobook narration is not on the approved list for Asian American children to be doing as career paths. And therefore, I don't think that there was much encouragement over the generations to get people to, I mean, anything arts related to enter, and therefore there's a supply issue that's working in your favor. But at the same time, I don't think it would be remiss to say that you are obviously capable of more, right? You're capable of playing other roles. You're capable of doing many, many different things and you already do in your other life. And I do think that's kind of the eternal struggle with where we are in history because I think many people feel this no matter their kind of family background or their language. How does this actually influence how I'm being chosen, what I'm putting out there? That's why your first post on this was the first post I saw from you and how we connected that was so interesting because I don't think there's a right answer, at least not yet, right? The story is still ongoing. You're still living.
Heather:
Yeah. I think it is interesting just to see where my path will take me, but I do follow other really, really popular Asian narrators, and some of them are actually mixed and just seeing what types of books they end up narrating for. And again, in the end, authors and publishers are picking you for your voice. So I'm not of the mindset to think that me being Asian American is what's holding me back.
Heather:
It is I need to develop my craft better. So if I need to work on acting on my voice, on the resiliency and the endurance of my voice, these are things that I have to work on. And I think if you think that you are boxing yourself in or you think you only fit into one category, that's a mindset thing. So for me, if I'm not being hired by non-Asian authors, that is something that I need to improve on is my skill. I'm not changing who I am, but I can say that everyone can be better than what they are. Now I can say that my first book versus my second book that I've improved, all I can do is work on my skillset and keep pushing forward. If an author chooses to not choose me, not because of my voice, but because of my background, I wouldn't want to work with them anyways. We're not going to be happy with the product.
Michelle:
This is crazy powerful. Thank you so much. You didn't know me, I didn't know you. I really, really appreciate you taking the time to connect, and then we talk all the time now. So I think it's amazing. I want to see if you're comfortable and you can say no, I'll just cut this out. You say no. I'm wondering if you can kind of do different voices or accents for the audience to kind of get a, I didn't preview you, I'm sorry. No, it's okay to get a taste of what you do and how you can modulate your voice. I've seen some of your videos, so I know that you work on it constantly.
Heather:
I'd kind of have to try and find something. Okay, let's roll. I found a little part, so it's actually in my audio sample. If you go to my website, it's one of, it's a little excerpt from a book, but it has a little bit of a female voice and a male voice, and then also Mandarin.
So I'll just do a quick, very quick little blurb. Mom, she greets me with the burst of Chinese that I can't understand. Mom, it's Gracie, you need to speak English. Okay, mom, see Sam behind me and her eyes widen, shall this I understand. No, I nearly lunge forward. This is Sam, a friend from work. He's a friend from work friend to Sam. I say she thinks you're her little brother. Sam comes into the room and reaches his handout. Nial. Sam, I bless the app because Sam spoke slow enough to let me understand what he said. Mom blinks again. Al. She glances at me. Gracie, sweetie. Well just stop there.
Michelle:
Oh my God, that was so good. That was so also the guy part. You sound like my little cousin. It was extremely monotone. Sorry, not to my God. Not to say that you were monotone. It's just the way that his voice comes out is so funny because I feel like when we lower and I do it for fun as a female to lower my voice and kind of change it when I make fun of guys, I'm like, oh, so you wanted to go there? Right? But I do it the same in Mandarin, and then I realize, oh my God, no, he actually speaks like that. So he actually reminded me of him.
Heather:
That makes it even more real. If I remind you of someone in your life, I did it
Michelle:
Right? Yeah. And let's again remind the audience or the listeners that Mandarin is not your native language. Yeah. So you doing Mandarin and an accent and changing not only the language, but you played a female and a male character in this, and also the mother and also the, okay, so many things going on and a lot of talent over. Thank you. I appreciate on this side. Yeah, thank you for doing that. I think that was such a nice treat. So thank you for being here. Thank you for your energy, for your time, for sharing a bit about your story. I hope that one day, if you ever do choose to go into private work for your day job, I have so many people I could recommend you to, so you absolutely would not have to worry about clients. I think a lot of people need it. Yeah.
Heather:
Thank you. I really appreciate the time that you've given me. And honestly, all of our conversations on Instagram and all that, they've been really, really enjoyable for me. So.
