EP 27: At Home, An Outsider (Sonia M.)

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Michelle (intro):
Welcome back to We Cultivate the Pod, where we explore the intersections of language and communication, culture and identity. Today's episode is with Sonia. She was born and raised in Italy, and therefore identifies as Italian, but also as black Italian and mixed race. Her story shows what happens when identity collides with perception, when stereotypes, biases, narrow ideas of belonging, dictate how others see you, even when it's not your own truth. We talk about what it's like to not match the white European standard despite being born and raised inside of Italian society, and the added weight of navigating this as a woman, including very real concerns and questions of safety that I have also experienced as well. So yes, this is also the first episode where I have personally weighed in with my own thoughts and experiences on the topic, and I just want to remind everyone that these are deeply complex issues, that whatever we discuss here is specific to what we each have experienced, that if it doesn't match what you've experienced, that's life.
But furthermore, that I'm deeply grateful to Sonia for not only opening up about them to really reflect authentically what her life has been like, what her journey has been like, especially in a world that feels less tolerant by the day and at a time that I personally feel we need more of these conversations, not fewer. At its core, this conversation is about truth, resilience and about the realities of navigating a world and home society that insists on putting you inside of boxes that you don't fit in and keeping you out of spaces that you were born into. So here is my conversation with Sonia.

Sonia:
Of course. Yes. My name is Sonia. I'm from Italy, and I was born and raised in Italy, but I've traveled pretty much all my life. I am a creative, so I do a lot of copywriting and just digital marketing and a little bit of photography, and I have just come back home after almost eight years abroad. So this is my first time being back in Italy and exploring a little bit what it's like to be back home. I started traveling when I was a baby because my mom is Italian, but my father is from Cameroon. So I lived in Cameroon and in Senegal for a couple of years, and that's where I started to learn French and be around other people. Also more international people because I was going to French school, and then when came back to Europe, it was more little trips here and there.
My mom would always send me to this study holiday in other people's families to learn the language and just be with them. So by the time I was 18, I was already well traveled. I also did six months in Brazil for my studies, and I've been to China as well for a couple of months, and then I finally started to do travels just for me and not study related. I went to Amsterdam for a couple of years just to live and work there, and then I went to Australia for five years, which is where I'm coming back from.

Michelle:
Yeah. So then Australia was your longest stint?

Sonia:
Definitely, yes.

Michelle:
Yeah, yeah. Did you plan to stay that long?

Sonia:
No, no. The plan was to do three to six months in southeast Asia, and then a couple of years in Australia, maybe one in New Zealand, and then come back. But I was there in the middle of COVID, so I had to extend my third year and then my fourth and then my fifth. It was actually five and a half years that I was there. Yeah.

Michelle:
I love all the stories where it's like this was the plan and then COVID, everyone's like, ah, okay. We the,

Sonia:
It makes

Michelle:
Sense now. Yeah. Can you walk us through your, I mean, and this is a question I've asked you in your bio also, and you kind of just touched on your family background, but linguistically you threw in facts I for sure know about you because we've talked, but I feel like we've already touched on so many. So what has your language background been like your whole life?

Sonia:
Yeah, so Italian is definitely my mother and first language, so I think and speaking Italian most of the time, and I would say French should probably be my second language, but because I was not raised with my father and all of the French experience that I have were through French school or travels with my mom, I feel like on paper it should be my second language, but in practicalities it's not. So I would say English is the language that I'm most comfortable with, especially after spending so much time in Australia, and I also started my business, there was a lot of personal development. So right now when I think about my feelings or my thought process most of the time is in English, which is very interesting. But then I also learned Portuguese when I was in Brazil, and there was a time when my Portuguese was definitely better than my English and my French, so right now when I speak French, there is a lot of Portuguese coming through or maybe I would say one word and it's like, oh, actually this is Portuguese. Let me think about it. And then I have the same in Portuguese, it's like, oh, wait, this is French.

Michelle:
Was going to say, I just recently tried to pick up Spanish again after many years, and of course the first thing coming into my head is French, and what's happening now is the prompt is probably in English or in Spanish, but then I'm going through French, which as an unnecessary intermediate step because I guess that's my default romance language. And so I'm like, ah,

Sonia:
I know exactly what you mean. I remember I was at this wedding and everybody was speaking French, and I was ready. I had practiced, I had studied, I took extra lesson because I really wanted to speak French, and then in the middle of the sentence I was saying que and things like that, just randomly, and I was like, I know this is wrong. What's happening?

Michelle:
Yeah. well,I guess as someone who grew up with Italian as your base, I wonder, this is a question I've had on another podcast with somebody else who we're both native English speakers and we talked about how for us, there's sometimes this distance with all the different romance languages, we, it's not good or bad thing. I think it's just how it works because English is pretty far away, and then it's like we all had to, especially in the states, learn either Spanish or French, and many times people were going between the two, and so it's like, okay, version A is here, version B is there, version Italian is here, and then Portuguese is there. And so not to say they're the same, but there is a reason they're all classified under romance languages. How does it work in your head? Can I ask because Italians your base.

Sonia:
Yeah. I mean, when I study or read in Portuguese and French, if I don't know a word, it's so much easier for me to get it. I feel like I can get to that a lot quicker, but when I'm studying English or I studied German in school for five years, but nothing stuck with me, but that's just a completely different thought process, so it's just more complicated for me, and I think I can really see that right now that I'm studying Korean, there’s nothing, there's not even a single connection that I can make, so I feel like I'm just learning everything from scratch. But I think having Italian as a base language is really cool because I feel like of all the Roman languages, Italian feels like it's a little bit like the center. It might not be the most useful language just spoken in Italy, but I feel like knowing the grammar really helps you understand French, Portuguese and Spanish a lot quicker than if you were coming from a different

Michelle:
Language. Yeah, I've actually noticed that with the different European friends I have the ones who are, we're going to say Italian speaking, it could be they had family there, so they weren't exactly born there, but they grew up with the language they seem to adapt a lot more easily to, and it's not a rule again, it's a pattern that I'm just seeing with my five friends. It's not really scientific, but I noticed that they adapt to Spanish and French and kind of other romance languages a little bit more easily, and they can kind of work between them more easily than my French friends or my Spanish speaking friends because, and this is something I've heard and I discussed on the other podcast, it's like, I don't know if it's too close or I don't know. I don't know what it is, but there seems to be some tension or some difficulty when people go in these directions.
I had a friend, I don't know if I've already made this joke before, possibly I'll cut it out if I already did, but she went to, oh, I definitely made it before. Oh, she came to France and she's from Spain. She wanted to improve her French. She didn't know really anything, so she's like, of course I'm just going to put myself there, meet some people, hopefully learn the language, and she ended up improving her English because she met other people who were not, it's hard to make local friends, and she didn't have really even a conversational level. It was difficult to even have those opportunities. And so she left France being like, I spent X number of years and my English is now at a way higher level than I ever expected, so I don't know what to say except that I always enjoy hearing what it's like in the brains of other people who come. You're literally from not only the region, but this specific country. And so how does it work for you? I ask questions to my husband and to other people all the time. I'm like, what is it like in your brain? I will never be able to be in that position.

Sonia:
Yeah, I mean, I know what you mean because I feel like I have a lot of people that struggle native English speakers. Usually it's just difficult because I feel like it's just a completely different structure,
But in Italian, French, Portuguese, Spanish, I feel like it's always the same structure, so it's a lot easier. I feel like when I listen to songs, even Romanian, surprisingly Romanian is very, very close to so many languages, even though I don't think I could understand a conversation maybe written down, I will be able to understand a couple of things, but I agree. Also what I see when I travel is that a lot of my friends from mostly France or French speaking French, they struggle a little bit more when they have to speak another language. They would rather speak French or if they speak another language is English, but I feel like Italians maybe because we kind of know that nobody speaks Italian rather than Italian, so I feel like we are more, we don't care, we just go for it. And I've noticed that a lot of Italian don't really care about the accent. They don't care about how wrong the sentence is or how Italian they sound because they know they can express themselves anyway. I don't know. I feel like there is a feeling of just jumping into the conversation that sometimes I don't see that, and I am thinking mostly my English speaking friends that maybe they don't understand a word and they would stop. But I feel like me and other, I'm guessing other Italian people, even if I don't understand the word, I would go around it many times until I can get my point across, and I think that's maybe the difference. Yeah. Does it make sense?

Michelle:
Yeah. Oh my God, absolutely. Yeah, and this has come up a couple times because the friend that I was just talking about, she was the queen of doing the circle around the word to get to the point eventually and to continue because it's like seriously, it was incredible to me because I think I always try, but sometimes I might not necessarily stop, but I'll pause for a second and think about what is the best phrase I can use in place at this versus she would just keep talking. Granted, she was a Spanish speaker, she didn't speak Italian, but I do think there's something I notice in the rhythm of Italian speakers, Spanish speakers, it's like you keep it going. You just keep the movement happening, figure it out along the way. You're not sure where the train is going, but you're on it. And so I do think it's very, very cool also when you have a bunch of different, and again, this is my perspective as the native English speaker, but outside of romance language speaker in the group, I'm watching everyone.
It's almost like we always think of it like, oh, romance language. In what you're describing, it's similar structure. The conjugations, it's like a concept you're already familiar with. Gendered nouns is a concept you're familiar with, so you don't have to learn from zero those things. But there is something that happens where it's like, is this the word? Is this what it is? Do you guys say this? There is that difference. Also, it's like it's familiar, but again, maybe too familiar or maybe it's like a small variation or you can't remember which language it was. Was it Spanish? Was it Portuguese? Was it, which 1:00 AM I going to? And kind of what you're describing with French and Portuguese, right? It's like, I know it's probably not French crap, but I can't think of whatever it is right now or Spanish. I don't remember what you used. But yeah, I feel like people definitely, especially in the us, I feel take for granted the fact that if you come from a romance language, you automatically get the other languages. And I don't find that to be true at all. You might be able to follow what's happening to a certain degree, but it's not like you will naturally just speak five languages. No,

Sonia:
Definitely not. No, no, no. But I think it's just a different type of standard because I think people that don't speak English as their first language, I feel like they're leaning more towards speaking more languages. Just as a general rule of thumb, it's not always like this. And there's plenty of people in Italy that only speak Italian and maybe English or maybe French, but it's still different than sometimes a lot of people that I met in Australia, they only speak English and it's already a lot. But I love what you said about using words or not finding words, and I feel like, yes, I like the metaphor, the train going and you just have to keep it going. And I feel like the issues that I have sometimes where maybe I should stop and think is that there are a lot of what we call false friends, and so words that I'm using and it's like, wow, this means a completely different thing, but it sounds so similar, and I always remember for example, in Italian you would say, I'm embarrassed to say in Barada, but then in Spanish, in barada means pregnant. And so it's wildly different context that
If you just keep it going, you might say some really dumb stuff, but it also depends who you're talking with.

Michelle:
Yeah, it took me not terribly long, but I wasn't really learning French. I was traveling to France, so I was trying my best, and I learned it's supposed to be conservator without, but the English, it's preservative, but if preservative is condom in French, so I'm going around asking people if there's condoms inside of the food, and so I learned definitely about the false friends thing very directly. People were like, what? Because in their head they don't know that that's the word in English. They know what the word is in French, and they're like, what are you trying to get at? Then I open my Google translate and I'm like, oh, okay, I see why we didn't understand each other, so yeah.

Sonia:
Oh, that's so funny. I remember one time when I was in Brazil, something similar happened that we were going to this bar and I was having a couple of drinks. I was definitely not drunk, but I wanted to make the joke that I was drunk and I said, I am drunk, but what I actually said, I am a drink. And so everybody was like, what do you mean you want another drink? It's like, no, I had already enough. I was like, what? I am a drink. I'm a drink. I'm a drink. Yeah, couldn't understand what we meant. It was like, oh, actually now I remember

Michelle:
And good and bad. But I think it's helpful to have a group where everyone has different languages and then the person there who is the bridge between these two people can be like, oh, no, no, no, I know what you're saying. And then help in the moment. It is funny, but again, sometimes, yeah, sometimes it's really not funny. Sometimes it could be wrong. You're embarrassed, you're pregnant. Yeah, the situation goes in a very different way from that point.

Sonia:
Exactly, yeah. There's so many examples like this that it's like, I wish somebody would've stopped me in time.

Michelle:
Well, I was going to ask you, do you think that, I don't know if it's audacity or what it is, like the risk taking ness of Italians speaking people. Do you feel like that comes from the fact also that there is such a massive Italian diaspora around different parts of the world where because it's something, it's like a theory, I'm kind of working on the back of my head. I'm like, what makes things different? And I'm like, immigration makes things different. Okay, migration, not just immigration, but I get what you mean because noticed the same. It's like you just go for it. Do you see a connection between just the fact that you had, I think a lot of Italian people had to survive, and so they often had to in another language as well.

Sonia:
Yeah, I really see where you're going with this, and I think it makes sense. I think there's so many people around, so many Italian speaking people around the world that we can never speak Italian because there is not another country that speaks the language. So I think it's different. If I'm thinking for example, someone from Spain, the whole South America pretty much speaks Spanish and Central America, and even in the US you have a lot of that.
So I feel like you just start with the mentality of if you want to travel, if you want to be abroad, if you want to do these things, then you have to learn another language. Whereas a Spanish speaker or French speaker, you have so many other countries where you can go and still speak your own language that sometimes it doesn't make you feel like you should even push it more. A little bit like English. Everybody speaks English, and I had this conversation with a lot of people in Australia that are like, maybe they want to learn another language, but the moment they say they are English speaker, then everybody wants to practice their English with them. Or maybe they're like, oh, don't judge my English. I'm so sorry. And so there's never this openness that you have when nobody speaks English and you just use English as a communication language, which is I think for me, for how I was raised. That's how I think of English.

Michelle:
Yeah. Let's kind of jump into a topic that I know you and I have discussed from our own personal perspectives. If you're listening to this and you don't see our faces, well at this point hopefully you realize I am Asian and Asian looking, and Sonia, I'll let you kind of present yourself, but yeah, we're going to move into this other kind of harder topic. I think about what it means to not only speak multiple languages, but represent multiple cultures inside of predominantly, I'm going to say Western, it's not my favorite word, but in the western world, what this means.

Sonia:
Yeah, so my mom is Italian wife and my father is from Cameroon, so I'm actually mixed, and I don't know if there is another word for it. I would say I usually say Italian, and then if people ask me more, I would say black Italian, but mixed is usually what I go white, and it's not a lot of people that look like me in Italy or I mean in Europe, but not with my background. So it's always confusing to people.

Michelle:
And something that we've kind of touched on privately is the fact that much of the world associates Italy, I mean France too, but we're going to focus on you on Italian identity being a white Italian identity and as if there was a pure Italian white Italian identity, which that word always makes me really cringe. Can I first ask you how that makes you feel as someone who was born and raised in the country?

Sonia:
Yes. It's not a good feeling because I feel like a lot of people told me that, and they also make me question how really Italian I am because yes, on paper I am only 50% Italian. So sometimes when I was younger and all of these things used to get to me a lot more easier, a lot easier,I would feel like maybe they are right because who am I to say that I am pure Italian? And then when people would speak a little bit of Italian because they were taking classes or things like that, I would feel like, well, I am more Italian than that, but people would say, oh, he's Italian because they can speak Italian. But then they wouldn't say to me,
I'm always, I always feel like I am the mixed person that I was born in Italy, while other people, even if they can say two sentences in broken Italian, but they maybe had a cousin that was born in Italy, then they are Italian. And I never understood how come all of my school or my passport, my culture, even my humor, everything is Italian and that's the culture that I can connect to. But there's always someone that has a grandparent that was born in Italy or went to Italy for three months and for some reason they're more Italian than me.

Michelle:
Yeah. This question of what does it mean to be X is something that is not easily answered, I think by most of the world. I think many people don't realize how many countries we're going to just say don't agree on the definition of what it means to be X can be whatever. I think this is what I personally want to do with this podcast is not only talk about language, which is very important, but a huge part of language is also communication with others. It's also how you understand someone's background and also someone's identity. And so then when your identity, it's already a complex topic, but when you're being told that your identity is not this because you don't match whatever definition somebody has of whatever X is. I know this from my own version of it, but it's to kind of say it doesn't get better ever. I feel like when you don't match the stereotype of whatever it is, you will always have to deal with this in your daily life or in your regular existence. And you bring up a great point by the way, that in the US there are many people who are, let's say they came in the 18 hundreds, their family, they're the wave of people who immigrated.
I understand that technically because they're like, great grandmother, grandfather came and they kept certain traditions alive. Is it fair to call you not Italian, even though you were born and raised and not for nothing? It's not like you just ended up in a country. You literally have a parent who's Italian, but then for you people say, oh, you're only 50% versus for these people who maybe at this point they've already married, had kids with other people. And so the Italian portion of it is, I just don't like to talk about it like this, but it's so diluted in terms of genetic background and ancestry. And yet when they go to Italy and they say, oh, I had a grandparent or a great grandparent, everyone's like, oh, you're family. And it's like, what? Right.

Sonia:
Yeah, yeah. That's exactly how I feel. And I think it's just maybe they fit a lot better with what people had in mind of what Italian people look like, especially in the us. And I feel like there's also this very big people in Italy realize the US a lot. I mean, I feel like everyone does, but I feel like in Italy especially, so when you're Italian, Italian and American, that's even better. It is like you can have even more, but for me, I don't look Italian and I get told I'm from Brazil or I'm from Africa. So it's just so far away from Italy that I think people would rather be like, oh, yeah, a lot of people told me, oh yeah, she's African, but she was born in Italy and I really have nothing African besides my skin color and my hair. I don't have traditions, I don't have culture. I don't even have the language. I can speak French, but I cannot speak all of the dialects of all the different countries. So it's, I think people don't really understand how much more complicated it is and they just look, okay, you look like this. So yeah, you might have some Italian, but not really.

Michelle:
Yeah, which again, we recall the fact that your mother is white Italian, correct. Your father is from Cameroon, but you also didn't grow up with him. So it's like you, or sorry if that's wrong, if I'm misremembering. And so again, it's not even because we do have a lot of mixed kids who do share 50 50, and I do think that's a really beautiful thing, and they're like, we don't care because we're just going to celebrate both equally. But I also feel like the greater challenge, if I can speak directly on this, is that it's really just your physical features that indicate to people that you don't match the mold because it's not like you're only speaking in a different language. You know what I mean? It's not like you're dressing a certain way. Sometimes there is more of a case to be made. I feel like if someone didn't grow up in the country, but technically this is part of their ancestry.
There's all these different variations, but there is literally nothing in terms of what we're talking about in your backstory, except the fact that your skin is darker than what people would match or think, right? Matches their definition. Your hair is different. I don't know. You know what I mean? It's like this is according to I suppose, whatever jury or board rules on this because who really decides, right? Society decides, but it's as if you see it so much, and I can't imagine what it would be like to live through that because the US, while not exempt from this is a different place for many reasons, but I at least got to, I wrestle with things, but for me it's like no one is truly native here, so no one gets to use that. And so even though we have a certain extreme political party who's doing a lot of damage right now and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah has all that, and all the people who do support that type of thinking, I would say the vast of people, no matter how they voted politically, don't really believe in this type of very Eurocentric, very white centric feeling of what it means to be American.
I think, I hope whoever's listening to this, I hope people understand that there is a challenge that I see in Europe that doesn't exist in North America for people. I'm going to say people of color. I understand that every country goes through its own challenges, and for sure the US has a lot of work to do, but this is what I feel, and I also live in a different way when I'm in France. I really want to give proper weight to what you have had to go through your entire life because I do feel like you were presented with challenges that we weren't, at least not in recent generations. Again, I'm not saying racism doesn't exist or discrimination doesn't exist, it's just to call yourself whatever identity or national identity. I am allowed, for instance, to hyphenate and feel totally okay with that, and also feel like there's white Americans, black Americans, Asian Americans, Hispanic, Latino American, we get to do all these things. You don't get to from my perspective, be like, I am just as Italian as you because you have people telling you you're from a literal different continent and happened to be born there. Yeah,

Sonia:
I know what you mean. I think that's very fair because I had the similar feeling when I was in Brazil and there were a lot of different colors, but everybody was Brazil. There's also a Japanese community in Brazil, and they're still Brazilian, even though they have feature and all these things, but they are Brazilian, and I feel like Italy doesn't really have that. And I was always comparing to other countries in Europe, and France was one of them where there is a lot of people of color that are also French and a lot of actors and a lot of things like that. And even though yes, they might be coming from Africa or from other continents, but they are still French. And then I was thinking in other countries, like the Netherlands where I live for two years, nobody has ever questioned where I was from because they're so used to that. So you see a black girl and she's Dutch, and you believe her because that's happening and that's a possibility.
And so there's so many other countries that are like that, but I feel like Italy is just not like that, and there's a lot of, I think the population is very old, so the mentality also stays a little bit older and is not as, I don't feel like it's going as fast as in other countries maybe. But when I say black Italian, it doesn't sound as good as black American. It's as if it sounds a little bit empty as if it doesn't mean anything.

Michelle:
Yeah, I mean, I don't know. If you could describe for us maybe how it was when you were growing up, did you see other people you, did you feel like you were the only one?

Sonia:
Yeah, most of the time. Yeah. In my school, I was always the black kid, or if there was another black kid, it was always like, let's put the black kids together. Are you guys from the same country? Or it was always like, wow, you really look alike. And it is like we have nothing in common, nothing, but just because we're both darker than you, then you cannot see the difference. But yeah, I'm just thinking all of my primary school or middle school, high school, there were not really a lot of people like me, and I could definitely count them on my fingers across all the schools.

Michelle:
Yeah, I think another thing that people assume is that this type of diversity comes if you are living in a very remote area or if you are not in a major city. Because I suppose some people, and again, it depends on your own home country, I think to give you this kind of framework, it's definitely not that way across the board, but I think I noticed there's a trend of being like, oh, well, of course, for instance, what you're describing for France outside of Paris, I'm just really asking myself, would people really, really accept black people as truly French, or is this me being in the country? While I can't speak for everyone, I can definitely say that it's not uncommon for me to hear, oh, yes, they're French, but French but is always, or French with whatever Origins background roots, which no one says for anyone who's white.
It's like, that's interesting, but white French, meaning if you were white Italian and then you move to France, you probably would get the French, but Italian thing. So it's kind of like there's this double layering happening in France. So yeah, it was really, really fun to deal with. So when I'm presented to other people, for instance, even in my in-laws side of things, everyone will be like, oh, she's American, or she's American, but Asian American, but with Chinese roots or whatever roots. And it's pissing off my husband a lot because he's like, why are you always doing this? It's really unfair. It's only happening to people of color. Why is it not happening on both sides? It's not a normal thing yet. The word that the French people use is it's so normal. It is normal to them, to other everyone else. So I guess I get what you mean by normal, but you know what I mean. Yeah. Anyways, I feel like in France I see that there's multiple levels of it, but inside of a major city like Paris, which is really the only place I can think of where it's a little bit better in this regard, people really are living together in a different way. I don't know if Italy, it's like a countryside thing. Do you know what I mean? How would you see this?

Sonia:
Well, I think when I was a kid, it was also different because I couldn't see all of this.
I could see that something was off, but I couldn't put it into words. So it's different. But I've done all of my primary school and a little primary school, I would say, in Milan, which is a big city. And I think now that I came back after so many years and I was in the city center, everybody was speaking English, everybody was very international. There's a lot of international students. And I even order a coffee and the guy started talking to me in English because all of the people before me were students. So if it was like this and if it was like this in the past, I don't think I would've noticed that because I'm just thinking that's very international. I love it. But in the past, people would be speaking Italian to everybody and then asking me if I also spoke Italian. And it's like, why don't you assume that I do, and then I will tell you if I don't
Or why don't you ask to the other people? Because they could be from Spain, they could be from wherever. And I think another factor is that because I was always with my mom and my mom is quiet, there was always that feeling of what is happening right here. And she told me stories, and I am sure she didn't tell me all the stories, but how people would be like, oh, where is your daughter from? And it's like, what? She is my daughter. And it's like, yes, of course she's your daughter, but where is she? Probably she's from Brazil. And it's like, why? They cannot accept that this is my daughter and everybody asking me, are you adopted or all of this conversation that is even in Milan, people were having this conversation. And yes, okay, that was almost 30 years ago, but still, still,

Michelle:
Yeah.

Sonia:
So I think now that I am in a smaller city, I'm just prepared for that. But people just think that I'm a tourist, so when I go to these beautiful places, people just speak to me in English, and sometimes I also reply in English like that there's no time to explain in my backstory, I just really need to buy an ice cream and that's it. But yeah, I think it's definitely getting better and I can see the change in the future generations, but usually the people that say that it's changing and it's so much better are not the people that are living the situation. It's more the people from the outside that are thinking about it because it's still very slow, very, very slow.

Michelle:
What I notice in France, dunno if it's the same in Italy, is that it's the people of color slash people who have certain, we're just going to call it non-European roots inside of their family histories who seem to be the ones leading the movement towards more equality on the subject, at least in social discourse, meaning it's not the people who get to just kick back, call everything normal and then be like, oh, everything has changed. Oh, we're so cosmopolitan now. It's like I realized that there was a trend. I was looking up studies and I looked them up in French because of course they're written by French professors and such. I'm like, okay, very interesting that all of these last names seem to be North African and the people who go into this field, and of course we see it in the US also, so it's rare to see someone who matches the stereotype be bothered or have the interest.
Not to say everyone needs to go into academic research, but they, they're not the ones putting in the work writing books, leading support groups or resource groups or associations or they're not the ones doing this type of work. They're the ones who, I mean, if you're my husband, you're reading about it. I bought him a book to read about it, but it's not like my perspective. They're not doing much, right? Meaning they might go protest for sure. In France, it's a lot of protesting for many causes for many things. And so if there's BLM happened in the states, there was of course a movement that happened in France as well, so people go and protest. But to me, I'm like protesting is one piece of it. Sure, but you also have to be in dialogue with other people. You have to understand not your experience of it. So if I look around and good job you attended these protests, but if your friend group is still all not predominantly all white French, to me, that indicates that you're not actually really, really trying to understand the perspectives of other people. It's performative. So I don't know how it's played out in Italy.

Sonia:
Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. It's really tricky because I feel like a lot of people just get into this topic when they meet someone that is not like them, and it's like, I'm glad that I can be that person for you. I'm glad that maybe you can learn something, but at the same time, why do I have to be the one educating? We both have access to Google and Wikipedia and things like that, but I have to explain you why that comment was racist, why that
Thing made me uncomfortable. And then people will be like, oh, but it doesn't matter. I wouldn't feel it like this if it was me. Yes, but you're not like me. And it's like I always appreciate people that are doing all of these things like the protest and things like that, but at the same time it's like what are you doing in your day-to-day life that is actually changing? Because you can go to a protest and tell people you've been there and that you care about it, but then nothing happens. Or if you see something happening in the street, you don't say anything. And so it's always interesting to me that it's like I feel like I'm tired of being the educator. Not everybody deserves a full explanation on why this is right, why this is wrong, why this may be uncomfortable. A lot of people can come to this conclusion by themselves, and it's just missing that awareness piece. I guess just and go a little bit deeper, instead of asking your black friend or your Asian friend

Michelle:
The weight of being the representative of whatever, which sometimes, sure. For instance, for me, I'll just again use myself as an example. If you want to know how states are organized in the us, why there are 50 of them, and why our education is based on counties. Let me explain to you what a county is because you don't have the system. Totally fine. I am happy to talk about that because for me, it makes sense. How would you understand this? But I get questions on, okay, in China, blah, blah, blah, and I'm like, I have no idea how the education system works. Oh, I do know, but I don't know on that level because I was not educated there, and also I wasn't born there. And also, you know what I mean? My family fled the country for a reason, so it's not exactly a happy topic either.
If you ask me why I was born in the US I have to go into the revolution and everything, which is not a great time. And I feel like I'm confused sometimes because I have definitely been in that situation where it's just me and 20 white French people looking at me to give responses on things as if I'm some delegate for the un, and I'm like, I don't know. I'm trying to explain to you why you should probably ask someone else, but all you see is this my face, and you assume, oh my God, this just someone in my husband's family side. It's not directly related to him, but she was shocked that I don't know how to read or write or speak Korean, even though I speak Mandarin, because

Sonia:
How is that related though?

Michelle:
Yep. Because in Asia we're all one and it was literal shock and surprise and all, but there is no connection between them. And I guess somebody could be like, oh, well, makes sense because there's, she's French, so French, Spanish romance languages. I'm like, yes, but no, in this day and age, and this is not an old person. This is someone at that time, she was in her thirties, so it's what are we talking about here? And she's educated, highly educated actually. So what's happening?

Sonia:
Oh my god. Yeah. And it's also completely different alphabets, completely different countries. It's like Italian and Spanish. It's the same letters, but I know what you mean. I had people asking me if I speak Africans, and it's like, what even is African? You mean Africans?

Michelle:
And

Sonia:
That's not where my father is from, but yeah. Do you speak any African language? What do you think an African language is?

Michelle:
Yeah, I think something else is, I'll hear a lot of us people say, oh, I didn't have that experience when I met so-and-so in whatever European country. Just name whichever one. And I'm like, okay, well, can I ask you? Did you have that conversation in English? Meaning do you know that in order to be educated in English or to be able to hold a conversation like that in English, you're probably talking to people who have either traveled or had access to that. In terms of family, either priority or wealth depends on the history, but it's not like that's representative of the entire country. I'm like, exactly. I know that you talked to many people, but they all were having this conversation in English, and they all work a certain type of job in business, or they have a global vision of things like, yeah, of course they would be different. What? Yeah,

Sonia:
That's such a good point. And I feel like a lot of people, they forget that not everybody is supposed to speak your language to make you comfortable or to make you part of the conversation. It's not like we'd study English in Italy, we studied just because everybody speaks English, but I think if it wasn't that vast, I don't think people in Europe would do that because other languages would be the priority.
So a lot of people often forget that, and it's like, yes, but if you speak with someone like that, it means that they are, as you said, well traveled and maybe they have a really good education, good enough that they can have this hard conversation with you in a language that is not their own.

Michelle:
Exactly.

Sonia:
But it's a lot deeper than that.

Michelle:
Yeah, yeah. I mention all the time that my husband accidentally gets looped into this stereotype of English equals wealth and education because it's the total opposite for him. Socioeconomically, we were on the other side of the spectrum, but he decided when he was younger to go to London to try to work and make some money. It was not like he was sent to London. It was not this type of situation. Just literally, there was a family friend who had a son randomly living there. He lived in that guy's apartment, and then he was working in the kitchens of hotels and restaurants. It's not a glamorous study abroad exchange thing. So when people are like, oh, why is your English so fluent, so good, so fluid, and he's like, oh, it's because I went to London. I'm like, you need to stop saying it like that because everyone is automatically like, oh, so Michelle's with this really, really bougie, really classy.
He's classy, but you realize that from the external perspective it does paint a different picture. I'm like, what you need to say is the truth, which is you barely made enough money to survive. You couldn't even afford cheese when you came home. Your mother saw that you had, he was emaciated, apparently just completely anorexic because he couldn't really feed himself. So he was working a ton, and so he never went back. Also for that reason, his mother was like, why would you go to a country where you starve yourself? Because constant living is so high. Yeah, but it's kind of funny.

Sonia:
It is funny, but I know what you mean. Yeah. It's like a lot of people, they forget. I think I have a similar experience when I go to Camron or I go to Senegal, and especially because my mom, she works a lot in different African countries, so I visit her across Africa, and she is always struggling with the fact that they see her. She's white, so she must equal money,
And it's very different. It's not, a lot of people still think that means wealth in the sense of many cars and things like that. And every time she's like, I'm in Africa, I'm in this country. Everyone is always assuming that you're helping a school, you're helping building a hospital, you're helping. It's always this idea that, oh, those poor people cannot do it without them, and she hates that because that's not the job that she's doing, and the goal is really to work with the people right there. It's the same reason why I work with Australian companies. I'm not helping them build anything. I'm just working with them. So yeah, it's just like, it's interesting where you're from, the color of your skin and all these things, they really change the perspective of what people have, of the type of job that you do or the reason why you work in a certain country. You travel to a certain country. Yeah.

Michelle:
Can I ask what she does more specifically as her work?

Sonia:
Yeah. She's a project manager and a country representative. So she is leading projects that are led sometimes by some association that might be from Europe, but most of the time they're also locals.
So she's leading the team of people in the country and they're doing different project in agriculture because that's her field. So I guess people could say that she's helping, but I feel like every job, it's not the same way. It's like every job is helping.

Michelle:
Yeah. There's a two part episode that I released with a couple white American couple who went to Vietnam who basically, whenever they told their, I guess friends and family or just other people that they were going to Vietnam, they always assumed that they were there to go build a school there to teach English. And they were like, no, we were there because they had a family member who was living there, and they were trying to, it was like COVID, and it was like, no, just because we're white. No.

Sonia:
Yeah, there's always this assumption that you have to help those people, and you can also enjoy other country and travel the same way people other people do. Yeah.

Michelle:
I'm going to move us to a topic that is definitely related. I wanted to give our listeners a chance to understand the landscape of what we're working with, right? Because again, very, very specific to a certain part of the world, but also we look at how language and culture intersect with identity to then understand the complicated matrix of how this conversation is going. So, okay, I'm going to let you start out and talk about this because I definitely have my own stories. I just don't want it to be only about me when you don't fit the stereotype. Look, there is a certain feeling that I know to be true in my own experiences traveling around the world. It doesn't matter where I am. Whenever you're something else and you're female and you wear a little bit of makeup, or it doesn't even matter if you wear makeup, to be honest, but there's a certain allure that might come from the fact that the word is exotic, that is used quite frequently. Can you talk about your personal experiences on this subject?

Sonia:
Yeah, I feel like there's a lot of that pretty much everywhere I go, except when I was in Brazil and the Netherlands, that was the only country where I felt like a lot of people could look like me and I could just pass by. But in all the other countries, I really get the exhausted feeling, and it's very difficult feeling to trust because sometimes people are really nice to you and you're wondering why you're nice to me. Is it because I look this way and you've never seen someone this way? Maybe our conversation are really good because our conversation are really good and there's nothing, but I'm always double guessing and I'm always thinking, okay, I am the only black person in the room. Is this something that has to do with the conversation that we're having or not?
But I think especially when traveling, I really try to blend in a little bit more because sometimes it makes me feel unsafe, even though I don't know, it doesn't necessarily have to be, but it's the feeling that I get. And especially in Italy, it's just crazy. If I'm not in a big city and I'm in a small village, it's always like, yeah, people, they don't expect me to be Italian, so they're always very curious and trying to dig in, it's like, oh, but where are you from? But where are you really from? But where is your family from? And we have to go back generations before we can have a conversation. Do you know what I mean?

Michelle:
Yeah. Do you ever ask it back? Are you ever like, why don't you tell me first where you're from and where your family's from since you're so curious about my background?

Sonia:
Yeah. I sometimes do that. It's more like, oh yeah, I'm from here and here, and what about you? And usually it's like, oh, I was born here. And it's like, oh, that's so easy. And so I always say, oh, yeah, I was born here too.
Or sometimes when they're trying to ask me the question, but I can see that they don't want to say, so they're like, but where are you originally from? What's your ethnicity? You were, but they're very shy and I can tell they want to ask me, why are you black and why do you speak Italian? So always, not always, it depends on the person, but if I really feel like I will never meet this person again, just wasting my time, I would just make up a random story of how my father is from Russia and my mom is from, I don't know. And they just met. It's like, oh, but where's your ethnicity from? Oh, that's what you mean? Yes. Because we were actually born and raised in, I don't know, Ukraine, that's why. And so I always make it even more complicated until they're like,

Michelle:
Okay, yeah, it doesn't matter. I love that. I love that because I'm sorry, I, there's probably some ethical thing that I'm crossing by liking this type of situation, but it's one that I'm so familiar with also because I feel like you just serve back what you're given in a way. And of course it's, if you're not seeing these people again, doesn't actually really, really mislead. I dunno. To me, I feel like the grounds for the question are already problematic. And so when you are just mirroring the behavior, I see, not only do I see that this is kind of warranted to some degree, I mean, especially if you're like, oh my God, it's the fifth time today. Seriously, what is up with everyone today? But I've also done it for sure. I've given fake names. And it also, sometimes it's for security because you're in some part of the world where you don't want everyone to know so much about you because clearly there's a target on you and you're just being prudent by not sharing all this.

Sonia:
Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. There's been a lot of instances where I think especially traveling as a woman, I am always going to meet my husband, and my husband is always from the US or from Norway or from something that it will definitely sound white in a way,
But I feel like when people get a little bit lost into these things, I had people being upset, why don't you want to tell me? Why is it that negative? And it's like, it's not that I don't want to tell you is I get asked this question so often that sometimes I'm just wondering, does it really matter? And I reflected on that so many times, and people really dig in and they try to ask you all of this question. And at the end when they get the answer, sometimes it's just the satisfaction of knowing that they were right, that I was not Italian. Like, oh, I knew you were not Italian. I knew you were not from here. And then they go on and their day can continue. And for me, it is more like now I'm thinking about this conversation for longer because what if his wife, what if I'm not really Italian, but also why you're not having this conversation with other people? And so I've come to realize that these kind of questions are a form, maybe very subtle, but still a form of microaggression. And some people just get asked this question more often, and
A friend of mine actually described it as mosquito bites. It is like one mosquito bite is nothing, and you can just crush it off and it's going to go away on its own. But some people just get more and more and more mosquito bytes to the point that maybe you have one last mosquito bite and you go crazy. And yes, from the outside it's just a mosquito bytes, but how many other bytes did you have before? And so that's how I'm looking at it from this angle, and it really helps me understand, okay, this is maybe not making me uncomfortable, but I can still take a step back and protect myself by telling that my father is from Russia and it's not going to hurt anyone.

Michelle:
That is such a good image, by the way, because many times what you'll hear, and sometimes I'll hear people say this on my behalf, I dispatch my husband to go deal with all this stuff. I'm like, go, go talk to your people. But sometimes I'll hear him say things or I'll hear people say things like, oh, don't the cognitive load or the mental load of dealing with this. And I'm like, well, when you say it like that, while it is true, it feels like it's a psychological problem and it feels like, oh, other people should just feel sorry because my life is hard and it actually doesn't get to the root of it. So I like that you are using mosquito bites. It's perfect actually. Well, one mosquito bite for sure bothers me. I have that type of blood type that attracts mosquitoes a lot, and so they get really, really big. But even if I didn't, yeah, after a hundred mosquito bites, it doesn't matter who you are, you're going to be like, this is annoying. It's, it's your whole body and there's no more space left, really. Where else are you going to bite? Oh, you're still going to bite. You're going to bite on top of the other bites. Got it.

Sonia:
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it was a pretty powerful analogy, which is why I always use it when I have to explain why I don't want to talk about it or I'm tired and it's like it doesn't even have to be in the same day. It can be a lifetime of the same questions and that's still going to be enough. Why do we always have to talk about this? We can just keep to the next thing and have a normal conversation and then it will naturally come into the conversation because of course it's going to influence my background. And of course if we talk about family, it's going to come up, but it is much more natural and organic to have it in a conversation like this instead of asking it right away because you're curious and you cannot wait to get to know me.

Michelle:
Yeah. The defense I've heard in France, which again, I don't consider it really a valid defense. I have heard often that, oh, we're asking just because really interested. And I'm like, well, interest comes from many different sources. If you're interested because you believe that something that you would never do to another person who looks like you would never cross that boundary simply because you're like, oh, it's rude to pry so much to ask so much. The argument is always, well, we're interested and we want to know more. Because sometimes, oh, we think you're really pretty or we think that it's so interesting. You must be so interesting. And I'm like, don't sugarcoat it inside of some sort of complimentary situation. I am too experienced in smart, honestly to see what's going on here. And it's like if you want to be asking someone else this question, they're always like, oh, no, but these are innocent questions.
What's your background? Where are you from? Whatever. I'm like, you want to be asking these specific questions. Someone else tells you I'm from whatever validated country, or they give a validated answer and it matches how you see them looking on the outside. Because really that's an interpretation that's specific to the person. You don't go further like, oh, it's not necessary, it's rude, it's whatever. But for me, for other people, for you what you have to experience, it's constant, right? It's like it literally doesn't stop until they're satisfied to whatever degree. And I just find the exhaustion that comes from doing this is actually not, it's not about talking about these problems because I do think it can be really a good thing to have conversations like this sometimes if it's in good faith and you really feel like you're connecting well with the person, but when it is, it feels targeted.
It feels like an interrogation to me. Even it's not just target. It's not just mosquito bite, it's not just attacks. It's just like, why is it not stopping? Because I have told you that it is enough and I don't see why I have to keep taking it just because I have to fill the gap inside of your brain. Whatever is not working, it's on me right now to provide all the information to you, and it's not on you to the education you're talking about. It's like you have the same access to things. Why is it my problem now?

Sonia:
Exactly. Yeah. And it's just that feeling of once they get the answer that they want, it's not even important anymore. It is like, oh, okay, now they can move on with the day.
And yeah, it always seems like a compliment. It's like, oh, you are so pretty. This is why I want to know. And this is something that I really had lots of conversation with my mom, but also with other people that I don't think they can really understand when every time I am in Cameroon or in Senal, but mostly, yeah, Cameroon is where I go usually, but people watch me all the time and I feel like even then I'm the exotic little thing because I'm not white, I'm not black. What am I? So I know that I stand out because of that, and I really hate that feeling. I really hate the feeling of being washed. And I feel like when it comes from black people, I feel even worse because it's like you should me when I'm in Europe, it's like I protect myself from the white, let's call it white gaze, but I don't know what's the word. But then when I'm in Cameroon, it's the opposite and I kind of find more shelter in white people because maybe they're more, I don't know, maybe they understand. So it's like I'm never enough in each place, but then when I'm like, oh, I don't want to do this because I feel like people are watching me. Oh, but they're watching you because you're pretty. And it's like, no, they're watching me because they know there's something going on and they want to know, and I just think we shouldn't call it Should I be happy that everybody's watching me? Should I be happy that all of these men are trying to take pictures of me? Because that's a different conversation. And I think a lot of, especially on women, we put a lot of this pressure that is like, oh, he's looking at you because you're pretty, shouldn't we stop the boy, the man from looking at you just because you're pretty, even if you're pretty, and even if he's looking at you because of that, why should we feel like, oh, yeah, I should let this keep, I should this be uncomfortable for me?
Because he has nice intention. He thinks I'm beautiful, so he's allowed to make me uncomfortable. And it happens so much when I travel so often that is like, I don't like it. I really don't like it.

Michelle:
And beautiful doesn't mean safe, right? Yeah, beautiful doesn't mean protected. And also two things can be true, which was my first response back to the first time someone in France told me this. I was like, so you don't think it's both things. You don't think it can be more than one reason? Why are we only giving? Why are you trying to pin it on this? What seems to be to you an objective evaluation, which it already isn't. It's about beauty. So first of all, do you not think that in the interpretation of beautiful or exotic could also be ulterior motives of whatever sort? And that's confusing to me that people can't hold that. It's like, no, it can't be this. Reject your interpretation must be that. It's like they come together many times

Sonia:
And they just say to make you feel better. But it's like, yeah, if I were to focus on the surface level, yes, of course, thank you if you think that, but even if I am in love with someone and this person stares at me 24/7, that will also make me uncomfortable. So it's really not about that. And I feel like my default question is always looking around. It's how many other people look like me? Not a lot. So maybe it's not really because of that, just to be more aware of what's happening.

Michelle:
And I think we also live in a time, well, I guess humans have probably always been like this, where it's like, oh, so great to have, for instance, in dating and romance, big us people love this idea of European summer and going to find your Italian boyfriend or your whatever. Okay. Just be careful if you're a woman especially, and also a woman of color, because interest again can be shown in many ways. And sure it could be real. I believe what I have with my husband is real. I don't believe it's like a fetish for instance. But I do know that this exists. And why do I know that is because I had, well, not had to, but I went on many dates with people who showed me that it's very real and I had to get myself out of certain situations at a time where it didn't get to the point where it was extremely dangerous because of the fact that I was aware and informed already. Maybe if it was years ago, I would be a little bit more naive. I think I did have to go through a stalking incident and a couple of other things that really showed me both in the US and also in Europe. I'm like, it's really just everywhere and it can happen. For instance, I'm an Asian woman, but it can happen in Asia also, when women are in that marginalized position in certain societies, it's on the basis of color or race. It's also possible just because you match whatever the man is looking for.

Sonia:
Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. It's a really ugly thing that's happening. And sometimes I really feel like people, especially on dates and with all of this hookup culture, I feel like a lot of people, they just want to collect all of these colors of women or a boyfriend and it's like, oh yeah, I've never been with a black woman before. I've never been with an Asian person before. And it's like, okay, is this the only reason why we're talking? Because I don't really like it. But when I was younger, it just felt like, oh, that's amazing. It just, there's such a way for people to mask it as a compliment. That made me feel special until I understood what they really meant. And it's like, okay, that's not what I want. It's just very uncomfortable, but don't know why people, I don't, I would never be able to be in that position to wanting to be with someone from a certain ethnicity just because as if I had some kind of pocket X going on that I have to feel in.

Michelle:
For me, what I've had the privilege of living in France with my husband back when, and still now, it's weird because I feel like, so we have stories where people have asked him about me as if I am not right there, as if I don't speak the language and as if I don't literally understand every single word of what's happening. So this whole like, oh, where is she from? Oh, she's beautiful. She's so interesting. Kind of where did you find her? Where did you acquire this rare specimen? And it's doubly annoying because I feel it from the Asian female perspective, but then I also feel it from the, he's not my owner. So what is happening here perspective? And he's learned obviously how to really push back against that and be that wall for me when I need him to be. But it's so I don't make this stuff up.
I have enough things going on. I want to make up these stories, but you're just sitting there minding your own business and this can happen. So even if it doesn't happen in front of me, people might pull him aside. It's like, what is going on here? Truly, and I don't, for a long time I was like, is it just the city I live in? Maybe it's that right? And then I started traveling. It was at a time where I needed to collect data and I was like, okay, I'm going to go to other cities and go alone to kind of figure out if it's me or what's me, what's the country and what's the culture, et cetera. And I was like, oh no, it's happening everywhere. Nope, it's everyone. It's everywhere. It's anytime. And I'm just minding my own business. What's crazy is that you start to form your own understanding of how those little micro shifts specific to a region or country and culture start to play out. So if I go more east, they start to think I'm whatever. And why is that? Oh, I realize other Asian people, granted not from any of the countries my family is from, but I guess we look the same. So they start to group me with them. And so you start to learn more weirdly enough about the type that they've classified you as your category and how the regional migrations have happened because of how you're treated once you start to move around yourself.

Sonia:
Yeah. No, I know what you mean because I've also tried to see what was happening. And I think it also depends on the person that you're with because I feel like your husband and I, sorry, your husband.

Michelle:
No worries. I'm cool.

Sonia:
You and your husband, I was already thinking about the next sentence. Anyway, you and your husband, you probably have worked together to really have this conversation and have how to deal with this conversation with other people and really what to say, what not to say. And sometimes I am with people that have not done that work or they dunno where to start, and so they kind of play along thinking that that's okay.

Michelle:
And I'm always wondering, don't you think this is very weird and I can never flip it back on the other side. I can never say, how would you feel? Because there's nothing that I can make it sound similar when I say, people keep asking me where I'm from, how would you feel? And it was like, oh, well, I would love to share where I'm from. Yes, but you're missing the nuance of that. So I remember when I was dating this guy and he posted a photo on social media of so many black girls, very beautiful. And it was like, this is what heaven looks like. And it's like that. That's why we're dating just because that's the idea of what you have of me. And a lot of people don't realize, and it's just like, oh, it's a preference. No, not really.

Michelle:
Yeah. There's something I want to kind of put in here before we move on to, because I want to ask you for sure about that. Do you know Patrice Evra, the soccer player, the footballer? He was originally from France, and then he went to go play. He went, I think he played in Italy, I don't know, but he played also in England and many other clubs and stuff. I think it's Man. U.. I don't really know anything about this sport, so I am not going to be like, oh, yeah, I follow his career. It's only I saw him on another reality show where he was talking about the difference between racism and ignorance, and it was a very short clip, but I think it's really worth mentioning here because he is a black French man who went to Italy at the time, he was very young.
I think he's in his late forties now. This was maybe 30 years ago. He essentially landed and he describes a story where people started taking pictures of him and he's like, oh my God, I'm already famous. People already know who I am. People want to because he's there to play for whatever event or team. And then he realized it's because they had never seen a black person in their life. And he's like, okay, but recognize this is not racism. This is just ignorance. They just don't know because they literally did not have, at the time, we didn't have the internet. We have now. They literally didn't see it was some small part, I don't know where in Italy, but it's like some part where they literally had never seen anyone like this before. And so of course they were just like, whoa, can I have a picture with you?
Oh my God, it's so cool. And we see videos like that online. I have family from China, and it's a country that was locked out from the world, the rest of the world for a very long time because of internally a lot that was going on. And I do hear when people are like, oh, but when people are curious, it's almost like there can't be multiple versions of curiosity. It's like people are curious because in China and other countries, they take pictures also of black people or in Africa, people take pictures of Asian people, they haven't seen them before. And I'm like, yes, there is that. Of course there is that, of course, that exists. If you go to these remote areas, of course it exists except it's now currently 2025. And with all the technology that exists and how connected the, we'll call it the free world is, and all the people that I had the impression that there was zero Asian people in France before I moved there, just the way that I was treated. And then I was like, oh, no, they're all here. They're just invisible. You know what I mean? They really exist. They've been here for generations. But I do feel like it's important to mention that regular curiosity, genuine curiosity can exist, but so does this other version where it is not only more uncomfortable, but can literally be unsafe for certain groups, especially women, right?

Sonia:
Yes. No, this is so true, and I feel like it really depends how people are also treating you. Because there are moments when people are curious. They would come to you and ask you, where are you from? And all of these things, and you can tell that they're sitting there because they want to listen to your story, and it's more like, wow, this is incredible. But then there is the, oh, I want to check a box. I want to make sure that what you say aligns with what I have. In my mind that, and if the case, I can tell all my friends about it. It's just sometimes very difficult to understand the differences or to understand what is what.

Michelle:
Yeah. And it takes time. You have to calibrate it to the country. And if you're only there for two days, can you really know? Probably not. But for you, you have a lifetime there. You also have lived in many other places. You start to build your own radar, I think.

Sonia:
Definitely. Yeah. And I can definitely tell immediately if somebody is asking out of curiosity, genuine curiosity, that could be maybe ignorance in that sense. And when it's not in Italy, for sure, and then in other countries it depends. But when people ask me, oh, are you from here? Are you from here? I also try to see what's the background. If it's, for example, someone recently asked me, are you, I think he said Maori or something like that. But we were having a very spiritual conversation, and the topic was a lot heavier than just where are you from? And so in that context, I didn't take it. I was like, oh my God, look at this guy. He's just asking me where I'm from. It was more like, I have a lot of respect for this person. I know he has a lot of knowledge, so if he's asking me, I know this is genuine curiosity because that's the first time you're seeing me. And then the topic never came up anymore, and it was just like, that's it. But if we didn't have that conversation before, I don't know how it would've felt. I don't know if it was a man of knowledge
Or not, but I think the context is also really important. Where you are, how you are introduced, how you're treated, that I think that all matters

Michelle:
For me. It's not across the board, it's just context, and you just go along until you're like, okay, no, this is where we're going to stop. This is me either pumping the brakes or leaving the conversation or handling it in your own way. You've had a lifetime of experiences informing this. What I realized also is kind of a big hint, I guess, is how, not intense in a sense of excitation, but intense in the sense, how much are you really pushing me? Do I feel like I'm backed in a corner
When I have to answer this question? And why does it feel like also, why is it coming so early in the conversation? Why is this, you can't move on if you don't know, you have to get me to give you the answer that you want. I think what you're describing or what you just described is you were already in the middle of a conversation. You were already on deep topics, and then maybe it was related. And so the question came up to kind of be relevant to continuing the conversation if it's not relevant, and it is literally like I am here minding my own business, and all of a sudden this comes out of nowhere. It's a little bit, why do you need this information and why am I entitled to tell you?

Sonia:
Yeah, yeah. I really like that analogy. If I feel backed up in a corner is usually when they want to an answer and you're like, why is it now? I remember I was talking with a friend, we were having breakfast somewhere, I think I was at the bathroom, and then my friend and this stranger started to talk, and then I arrived and I joined them, and it was like, oh, okay. And she asked, oh, and where are you from? And my friend answered for me because it was really good. He knew where he was going. It's like, oh, she's from Italy as well. We're both from Italy. They already had this conversation. And then she was like, oh, but you can't possibly be just from Italy. Where are you really from? And it's like, I don't even know your name. I don't know. I was having coffee with my friend.
Why are you here? You were just passing by. You decided to stop. Why do I have to tell you? And that comment, it bothered me for at least the whole day, but every now and then throughout the week, he would just pop back in. While I'm pretty sure that for this woman, life went back to normal and she didn't have anything to worry about. I think that was such a good example of unnecessary, that's just really not needed.

Michelle:
And just remembering every country's society has their own flavor of this. So even if what we're describing is out of context or comments or questions that come in the beginning of the conversation, I mean, I'm just always putting it in different theoretical situations in my head and I'm like, okay, in Asia, does it work like this? Based on my experiences in other countries, could it be like this? And yeah, for sure in China, people might literally just walk up to the street and ask you. But again, it's understanding that if you scale it to the culture and the country, normally in Italian society, it would be extremely rude to just literally be like to a white Italian person versus literally in China, the way that people talk to each other is almost as if it's, everyone thinks I'm shouting all the time and angry when it's just the way that the communication works.
You can be, it's not like you can beep, but it's a different, and I'm not saying there's not racism. Oh my God. It's just like I have to always do caveats whenever I say things. But it's not that it doesn't exist. It's not that it isn't, but it's like you need to learn how to make your radar specific to the society that you're in, specific to what you are, specific to what you see around you. It takes a lot of observational skills, self-awareness, deep introspection, a lot of contacts and conversations with other people as well. And it's like a process that you develop over time. I want to get us to the other stuff. I just want to say, that's why I think we're always starting and stopping these conversations because people are like, but no, that's not what, but no, this country and that thing. And I'm like, stop it. Why are we ever, even between France and Italy, things are not the same. So why are we acting? We can make comparisons in every single part of the world.

Sonia:
Yeah, yeah. That's so true. Yeah, I know what you mean. Yeah. I feel like a lot of people just, they really get lost with this, and it's more like, oh, but I had this experience with somebody else in this other country, so this must be the same. So many people in this world I know. Definitely not going to have the same experience twice. Yeah.

Michelle:
Oh my God. Okay. Yeah. Your existence to me is just so, again, thank you for coming on here to talk about really hard things, but also to show and illustrate, I think to many other people who are out there that they're not the weird ones, they're not the exceptions. You're someone who embodies, and I know it's heavy, but I do think that there's the saying that's like just because you carry it well doesn't mean it's not heavy, but you also don't allow the heaviness to stop you from living your life, which is something that I think a lot of people are struggling with, especially in this day and age. So I kind of want to touch on the really wonderful and positive aspects of being a multicultural, multilingual person and someone who has been able to traverse a multitude of experiences. What are some of your favorite things inside of, let's say, the Italian language or maybe the way that you can express in different languages that don't translate to other ones?

Sonia:
Oh, wow.

Michelle:
Yeah. I know for a language podcast, I finally asked a language question.

Sonia:
Yeah. Well, I feel like I definitely have an Italian humor in the sense that we joke a lot around, we describe things a lot. I don't know how to explain it. When we joke about something, we really describe it and we kind of make a little theater around it. And I really like, everybody says, oh, Italian people speak with their hands. And I really like that. I really enjoy that part. I feel like underneath all of the layers, Italian people are really warm and really funny to be around, and there's always something nice to talk about, always something that we can connect over. And sometimes it's just when it's abroad, it's always cues in and it's always food and things like that. But I just find it is incredible how just a few things like that can really bring everyone together. And I don't have this with, for example, my Australian friends, that I don't think they really have such a rich culture when it comes to food and art in general. So this is definitely something that I like. And when I'm abroad, I can connect immediately with other Italian people that are on the same wavelength, and it just feels like home. Yeah.

Michelle:
Yeah. So the humor, the hand
Gesture. Yeah. I think you've noticed, as you've talked to me, I do a lot of these things. This is what gives me away, apparently in Mandarin, because I was raised also in Mandarin as well as English, so Mandarin in the household, English outside, and that was not a choice. The whole, how do you raise a multilingual child? It was not a choice. It was just like that's what it was because of the survival. But I am naturally someone who talks with my hands, and when I speak in Mandarin, I still talk with my hands and people are like, yeah, you're not, your accent's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. It's not that I clearly see that you grew up with this language, but your body language is giving you away, what is this western, I feel? And it's like, It is that?

Sonia:
Yeah. Oh my God. I feel the same in English. Sometimes when I speak with people, they don't move a lot, or really, how do you do this contained?

Michelle:
Have you just speak your whole life? I can't.

Sonia:
Yeah. And I really, I trained myself to be able to not use my hands as much, and sometimes I would just keep them. I am still moving them. They're just not on camera, just to show a little bit more contained, I guess. But yeah, there are a few things that when somebody does it and it's like, oh, that's so Italian, but in a positive way, like, oh, that's so Italian, and I like it. Yeah, keep doing that.

Michelle:
Something that a lot of people talk about is how personalities will shift, and I like to call them language personas or language identities that are specific to their function when you have to use it. I don't like to think of it. I change myself because I don't believe I have to change who I am at my core to speak a different language, but how I express myself might change. Do you feel yourself shifting when you speak different languages? Yeah. What's that?

Sonia:
Yeah. I feel like because of all of my personal development happens in English, I feel like I'm more open when I talk in English. Maybe I feel like I have a wider range of vocabulary to express my feelings, and I know the meaning behind those, and I'm just more open-minded and social and friendly. And it also happens in Italian, but I need to have the right people around for me to happen. While in English, I feel like it's easier. And then with Portuguese, sometimes Portuguese is different because all of my friends are now online friends, and it's different if I had some Brazilian friends here, but it feels a little bit different. But I feel like the only language that makes me a little bit stiff is French, and I think it's just because I don't use it enough.

Michelle:
Sorry. Every single episode I record with anybody. Somehow it always comes back to how it's everyone's living in this. Yeah,

Sonia:
Yeah. You can't go out of that box.

Michelle:
Yeah. Do you feel like you, what's your French, do you feel like it's just the fact that because you learned it in school, do you feel like that's where the rigidity comes from?

Sonia:
Yes, but also I've never really used it outside. I feel like, because I went to French school in Cameroon and French school in Senegal, so you have European vibes and you learn French from France, but then when you're outside, that's not the French they're speaking. And then same thing when I was in school in Italy and I started French, and it was still French from France, but then in Italy, so the closest thing would be Switzerland, where they also don't speak like that. So I feel like I would be fine to speak French with not French people, with people that are not from France, let's put it this way, especially Canadian, and I feel very comfortable. And Belgium, I feel really comfortable, but every time somebody's from France, French from France, I feel like that's where my rigidity comes from, and I feel like I really have to pick my words. I really have to do all of the right liaison and all the right things. And I feel like if I miss it, even once, they will switch to English, and then the conversation will go in English. And I think everybody has this experience with French people, but it's like even when I can clearly tell that the person in front of me doesn't speak good English, they would draw, speak English, because maybe I spoke the wrong conjugation once. And so I'm like, I'm going to be careful. Let's continue French, please.

Michelle:
Yeah, which is also crazy with, so me living in France and knowing how many people make mistakes, French born French people, and we are going to say even white French people, yes, it's possible. They make a lot of mistakes in their actual French and in their writing, in their speaking. And it's, how do I know this? It's because I'm around a lot of them all the time. And so to pretend that there is some elite standard, and I do think that a lot of people who are born and raised inside of the culture when they're outside of the country in particular, to hold on to this standard, it's like, but you are not even adhering to the standard. Don't act like what you are doing anyone else is doing. It's so offensive and so bad because that's a little bit like that's a different territory. That's what I call it. It's not about the language then.

Sonia:
That's true. Yeah, that's very true. And I've learned now before, I would let that stop me, so if somebody would, we speak French and then I make a mistakes and I cannot find a word, and then the person would switch to English, then I would continue with English, and now I'm just revert back to French. And even if the person is speaking to me in English, I reply in French

Michelle:
Because yeah, you hold your ground. Exactly. You don't keep them conversation in French. Exactly. I know I only have to do that in Paris, but I, it's because everywhere else, nobody speaks enough English to actually battle me, and so they have no, and I don't speak horrific French, it's just things may not be a hundred percent accurate, just also because I didn't learn it that long ago and I'm just doing my best every single time, every single day. But I feel like what's surprising to me is a lot of it is attitude. I really realized when dealing with French speaking people from France, a lot of it is this kind of back and forth, got to battle it out, got to, got to get past that, whatever obstacle, and then we're going to be okay, but you have to do that all the time first.
And I do feel like larger society kind of works that way in France too. They'll always tell you something's not possible, and you're like, no, but it is possible. You just have to go ask the person. The cheese is not on sale, or sorry, it's not for sale because I can't find the sticker for it, and this is a real situation. It's like the cheese not for sale because there's no sticker. Okay, then go find the sticker. Oh, yes, I can't find the sticker. It's not possible. Why is it not possible? It's not possible. No, that's not an answer. It's literally, I'm sure there's a manager, I'm sure there's a book somewhere with stickers, figure out, just do the thing that you need because, oh, no, we can't sell it. You are staff here, go find your manager, please so that you can sell this cheese. Because what is happening here, it's right in front of me. Yeah,

Sonia:
Yeah, I know what you mean. Yeah. It's more like they said it's not working, so that's it. You're just going to move somewhere else.

Michelle:
Yeah, I know. And you're like, am I having a stroke? Right. Am I hallucinating the situation? You're kidding me. We're both looking at this cheese and you're like, oh, no, can't find the sticker. That's actually very funny. Yeah, right. Oh my God, I have so many of these. Do you feel like your personal development in English is also, do you feel like it's just your experiences happen to be in English? Is that what you're describing as personal development or is it more like resources in the language?

Sonia:
I think a little bit of everything, because I was in Australia when I started to be more interested in personal development in general, and all of the books that I reading that I was reading, they were all in English,
And the conversation that I would have about the books were in English, so it's more like the context. I think if I were in Italy, I would've probably read the books in Italian and the conversation would've been in Italian. So I was in that period and in that country where everything was in English. And I think that's also why, and I think I also started going to therapy in that period, so everything happened in English, and it was also the only time where I could process my feelings. And I think the only rule that I established from that period was that journaling should have been in Italian, otherwise it was always English, Italian. Sometimes I still do it, especially with my friend that I just put together the two languages, but at least when I write, I want to try to just write in Italian full time, and I have moments where I'm like, there's not a word that would describe this feeling as good as the English one. And maybe there is, and I just don't know it, but it's just easier for me to find it.

Michelle:
Yeah. Yeah. I think that's interesting also because I had someone else tell me that because there's so, the English speaking world is huge, and also there is a lot of interest in bringing in certain concepts in psychology and sociology into normal life, so we use terms cognitive load all the time, and it's not a technical term. It's like something everyone's familiar with, and I really realized, and it does exist in other countries, it's just in other languages, but I just feel like there is this kind of push inside of the language that's a result of different societies pushing again for more initiatives to come out. I really realized also how much easier it is to access resources like books, articles, literature in English than it is in other languages. I was trying to find stuff in French. I'm like, it doesn't exist. I'm like, oh my God. Yeah,

Sonia:
Yeah. There's so, there's so much more content that it's sometimes it's easier, and I feel like especially if it was written in English, then I would rather read the English version because it's probably has all of the nuances that Italian translation wouldn't probably have.

Michelle:
Yeah, I maybe, I don't know. It's more of a philosophical concept because I feel like it's good in a sense that more people are learning English and now we have a huge array of different resources, but then I also feel like doesn't this shut it out? I'm thinking of all the people who only speak one language, just Italian, just French, doesn't this limit them from accessing all this?

Sonia:
Oh, definitely. Yeah. I've thought about it very, very often. It's like everyone wants to learn English because of that, and we have so many English translators, but then I don't think we have enough translators for the other languages.

Michelle:
I know that you said that English is the communication language, especially on an international scale. What would you say, I asked this to someone else who's also Italian, by the way, on the podcast, and I asked her, what would you say to people who are saying that English is threatening the survival of other languages and culture with the language?

Sonia:
Well, on some level I think it is, especially when there are families that they want to speak English in the house, even though they're not from an English speaking country, and I think that's something that if I ever have kids with someone, I mean in whatever nationality, I feel like unless that person is an English speaker, it would always be Italian and the other language in the house, but I would never speak English to my kids just because that's the language. But I know a lot of people do and a lot of family do it because this way they're more used to this way. It is more Americanized. They can learn to be quicker. I think it's important to keep your own culture and you can still move away from the country, especially if you don't see a future for your family or for your kids, but some cultures cannot be explained, and I wish I had more African cultures in my family and I see why my mom didn't do it because that was not her culture. But at the same time, I think it would've been good to have a couple of celebrations, even though it was just me and her. I think it would've made me feel a little bit more African in that sense.
And I know this has nothing to do with English, but I feel like a lot of people do that with English, so they move from another country and they just speak English and yeah, I don't know. I feel like it's good to speak your own language and language of your country and have all of these different cultures and rituals mixed with other stuff,

Michelle:
So it's kind of like an and situation rather than a replacing.

Sonia:
Yeah, you can have both, but I feel like it's important to keep the roots, even if you don't necessarily love them or like them. I still think it's part of you in some capacity.

Michelle:
Yeah. All right. I think we can end it there. I mean, do you have anything else you want to just say before we go?

Sonia:
No, it was amazing. No, thank you so much for having me. It was wonderful conversation.

Michelle (outro):
I hope you enjoyed this episode of We Cultivate the Pod. Make sure to subscribe here and wherever you get your podcasts so you can catch new episodes as they become available. I also share after the mic reflections on Substack, the place where I dive into the themes that stay with me long after recording beginning in 2026. You can also find additional bonus content from guests and other, we cultivate extras, subscribe for free to the communication shift on substack. The link is in the show notes and in this description. Thank you so much for joining us this time, and I will see you in the next episode.